Genuine Vintage details vs Repros

[krunchkrunch]

Anybody here help me with this or have a view ??


I have looked at over 20 companies offereing relics and "vintage repros" and still cannot find one who gets the visual details correct ... are there any ?

The details they usually get wrong are -

rosewood/maple join at headstock usually straight when on a slab it should be round (most of these companies make the same errors because I think they all use "off the shelf" licensed necks probably from the same place)

sometimes the headstock is not exactly the right shape

truss rod access hole position wrong
volume and tone knobs wrong size lettering

Even the Custom Shop Time machine etc guitars have the knobs wrong

Anyone point me in the direction of someone who already does them right ... or why they all seem wrong - it can't cost anymore to get it right can it ?

I got dollars buring a hole in my pocket !!

[Fenderon]

I wonder if they do that to keep people from selling them as vintage guitars from the 50s and 60s, instead of current reproductions.

[krunchkrunch]

You only have to look at some other details to verify that tho'. The repro tuners look nothing like originals, truss rod thread is normally different and there are other subtle things in the body which are public knowledge - not least the fingerboard wood which is impossible to find in any qty. Really, they should get the knobs right at least. CS shop guitars sometimes get the headstock join right .. i think perhaps even they might sometimes buy outsourced necks - their necks and bodies are marked clearly inside - I don't think that's the reason .. they haven't bothered to spend the money on a new plastic mould more like. The reason the aftermarket necks are wrong is because they are made in high volume and the process to round the join takes a little bit longer and has to be done by hand and not on the CNC. The truss rod position is also determines by the way they make the necks and they want to drill the hole before the 'board is fitted - it's just down to cost - but the repro companies could make their own necks by hand ... if they knew how of course ! where is the wink smilie ?? grin

[johnreardon]

I don't care whether the Custom Shop Strats I buy are visually correct or not. I just buy them because they are great guitars to play and sound fabulous as well.

I'm also a little uncomfortable with the reproduction market, because of the point that Fenderon makes. It's to easy to pass them off as vintage to those who may not be as aware as some here.

Still I hope you find what you are after.

[krunchkrunch]

I know what your saying but it isn't hard to build a fantastic sounding and playing guitar - if i was going to pay the money CS gtrs are I want it to look right aswell and there is no reason they can't do it externally - I'm not interested in the dowel holes, routing shapes etc. if someone is seriously looking at spending many thousands on a vintage gtr they need to learn how to spot one - I scrutinised vintage gtrs 25 yrs ago with as much vigour when I went out to buy one even though I never paid more than 2,000 pounds for a genuine orig custom colour - albeit in 1990 - but I knew what to look for then and haven't learned much new since and getting the neck and knobs right wouldn't be enough to make me think it was real - if someone builds one from scratch and gets the inside right and puts on genuine hardware then .. well ... it can be very hard after the paint has been on for 10 years or more. Caveat Emptor no ?

[Strat-Talk]

I had a CS "NOS Strat" which was the model name. They were only available in 2000. They were 1965 repos, not relic'd they were NOS. Patterned after George Fullerton's 1965 Strat that he had stuck away in a closet when it was new.

I replaced it with a real '65 Strat.

As far as I'm concerned the two were virtually identical. Maybe you could tell the difference, but I couldn't.

[bobthecanadian]

Hey krunchkrunch,

welcome to the forum, it's great having you here.

it seems you have quite the eye for detail. i think you may be a prime candidate for building your own vintage/retro/period accurate guitars. if you can pick out those kind of details that even the custom shop isn't doing, it would be cool to see what you can some up with.

bob

[krunchkrunch]

yep - I can pick out that level of detail and have been for years - a bit anal I know but there we are .. also important for me as I was buying and selling vintage guitars to make some money to subsidise playing. I have worked with guys who were building fakes for a living ( I wasnt i might add !) 30 yrs ago but they didn't bother to pay attention to some details because not many people were that aware then and so they could get away with things - I saw at least 5 pre cbs strats become 10 by building extra bodies and necks or using late 70s tokai bodies .. distributing the real hardware between the 2 and suddenly you have 2 "almost" original gtrs .. these fakes are already 25-30 yrs old now - they may well catch most people out - you gotta take care if you don't wanna be scammed. If you gave me that CS 1965 I could probably show you immediately what is different - possibly from photos - may just be very subtle silly things but I can't say without seeign it. The point is not that the CS don't know - the CS isnt doing it for cost reasons not because they can't see them - they use mass produced parts - even sometimes necks from other compaies - necks you and i can buy for 180 usd ! check their own website.

[krunchkrunch]

In light of some suggestions here i have collected 20 photos from the 'net of what are advertised as "Cunetto" relics - every single one that has a rosewood board has the straight join - that is not period correct and would have taken 2 minutes to correct with a drum sander, there is evn 1 guitar where the tuner holes have been drilled about 1/4 of an inch too far awayfrom the headstock - not a big deal you might say - i say it is bexcause there is only 1 company who make that error and they are a licensed fender aftermarket neck and body supplier and they selll the necks for 180 dollars - and i am pretty sure this is one of their necks on this coveted 5 grand Cunetto - kings new clothes spring to mind when i hear this name becoming legendary. Don't think I've made many friends here but I am only saying it is as it is. In short - the "Cunettos" that i have seen in photos are not accurate and again there is no reason they should have got those details wrong except for keeping costs down yet they ask a high price for the product - it is ironic they feel the need to stamp the word "relic" all over the inside of the body and neck because if there is anyone who could be fooled to pay 20,000 pounds for that thinking it is a real 1960 guitar then .... well ... cabbage springs to mind.

[bobthecanadian]

hey krunchkrunch,

I like having you around. Thanks for sharing your pearls of wisdom with us.

Bob

[krunchkrunch]

Thanks Bob - I always have liked Canadians since I went to Banff !! ... but I came here to ask if anyone knows if anybody DOES make them right - and i still haven't got anywhere. Please nobody accept what i am saying as gospel - but go and check it out for yourselves - you may well spot something I haven't and we would all like to know - I am tempted to make a detailed check list for potential vintage buyers to protect them from getting scammed - screw sizes, threads, number of teeth on bushes, what looks suspicious and why .. that sort of thing - but there are a lot of people who wouldn't like that (especially some pro vintage dealers) because it isn't in their interest that it all becomes common knowledge - rather like doctors really !

If anyone thinks it is of use then I will do it and you guys can check, edit and maybe we can produce a fairly accurate document that may help others ?

We have all got enough guitars between us to take reference photos and do side by side comparisons to show some things to look out for at least - the document will never be totally accurate because there were a number of things that varied simply due to production processes, machines wearing out, changes or multiple suppliers - screws for example - but there is a distinct pattern on most items and these are the things to start with. I have seen a vintage guitar in a shop in London that came with a "certificate of authenticity" from a very very well known and seemingly respected dealer and recognised expert - i mean very well known - and he had confirmed it was a totally original custom colour strat - well there were 3 of us who had seen that guitar when it was being refinished only 7 years previously !! I am not kidding I promise you ! At least the guitar itself was
all original along with most of the components - the switch and 1 pot had been changed many timnes as is normal on a guitar that gets used - and the refinish was superb -but this guy has been doing it for a living since 1968 and also makes antique furniture and paintings - making a guitar look old is a very simple thing for him - anyway that's just one example - that is something i would not be able to spot no way - he got it all right - he painted it the same way - was very careful not to sand away any wood etc - he takes his time - I can only be sure about spotting the structural details and component details - but if someone gets them right I won't be able to see it - I know I could get it right so i am sure someelse can do it much better than me - but we can at least protect people from the obvious fakes.