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1961 Strat on EBay

Discussion in 'Pre-CBS Strats (before 1966)' started by wht1, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. wht1

    wht1 Strat-Talk Member

    61
    May 28, 2009
    PA
    Happened to notice this 1961 Strat on EBay which is for sale from an Australian seller with good feedback. Does the body and finish look right to you? Maybe that pickguard is throwing me off but the finish seems too new to me, although he implies its original. Curiously, the same seller has the neck for sale separately in another listing. I don’t plan on buying this. Just curious what the experts think.
    https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/292602145435
     

  2. Bazz Jass

    Bazz Jass Chairman of the Fingerboard Strat-Talk Supporter

    Nov 19, 2014
    Up a lazy river

  3. Bazz Jass

    Bazz Jass Chairman of the Fingerboard Strat-Talk Supporter

    Nov 19, 2014
    Up a lazy river

  4. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    I'm not saying it's fake or a scam because not enough elements to do so, but it's very sloppy of the seller to do this and if some of these sell at the same time, he will have a hard time explaining why the neck was sold seperately and why the case isn't there...
     
    Dreadge likes this.

  5. Adam Wolfaardt

    Adam Wolfaardt Strat-Talker

    Age:
    46
    307
    Jan 2, 2017
    France
    The red in the sunburst shouldn't be under the pickguard. That would be wasting paint. On some of the first 3 tones in '58 you do see some like this but fender presumably sorted that out quickly as its a wast of paint. As long the pickguard definitely doesn't look right. What's with the '50s type shield? It should have a full sized aluminium shield like all '60s strats
     
    Mipstoo likes this.

  6. Bazz Jass

    Bazz Jass Chairman of the Fingerboard Strat-Talk Supporter

    Nov 19, 2014
    Up a lazy river
    Given the muddle of photos, perhaps there is an entirely different neck for sale. One thing is for sure - the neck that is listed separately doesn't at all match the body of the entire strat listed. Totally different aging. @Adam Wolfaardt - I don't think that's a preCBS guard at all. Totally wrong colour and patern. See:

    http://hi-guitars.com/VG1344.html
     

  7. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    Where do you see all that?

    EDIT: Sorry, I didn't click on the link in the OP message... Found it
     
    Adam Wolfaardt likes this.

  8. Adam Wolfaardt

    Adam Wolfaardt Strat-Talker

    Age:
    46
    307
    Jan 2, 2017
    France
    7DDBAC57-8BC1-4116-BBE1-2667FC57914D-8780-0000073932A40F70.jpeg .
    Two tone sunburst under the pickguard on a real '61 strat
     
    Bazz Jass likes this.

  9. Bazz Jass

    Bazz Jass Chairman of the Fingerboard Strat-Talk Supporter

    Nov 19, 2014
    Up a lazy river
    Spot on. Some other observations from the Ebay one, compared to Adam's example:
    - worm rout way too clean
    - saddles too clean with no tool marks
    - nail holes too small?

    It's a curious thing. The neck looks legit, but there's only glimpses of it in this auction. As noted, it appears to be the same neck as the one being sold separately. Just all rather odd!
     

  10. Lozboy

    Lozboy Strat-Talker

    109
    Sep 2, 2015
    UK
    Not saying its legit or not.But I have seen many legit bodies pre 62 with very clean pup/worm routes. I always put it down to sharper tooling,prob. more time spent.Tearing and over pressure normally happens with blunt tools and a rushed job.
    Whats interesting is that in my collection of numerous photos.Its the worm route with top leaning towards the bridge that tends to be neater.So could be done by the same worker.
    Saddles seem too out of focus to see any tool ,marks.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
    G7guitarist likes this.

  11. xke38

    xke38 Strat-Talker

    234
    Jan 13, 2010
    1st floor
    There seems to be some finish in the small area were some wood was removed from the body to improve the access to the truss-rod. As this will not have happened in the factory, I'd say it's a clear sign of a refin (which could also explain the clean worm route).
     
    Bazz Jass likes this.

  12. MuscularDad

    MuscularDad Strat-Talk Member

    Age:
    28
    23
    Feb 22, 2018
    NYC
    I saw these too and got a weird vibe from them. I am not particularly good at identifying guitars but I wouldn't feel comfortable making the purchase, especially with the seller being international. know that there is a lot of variety in those pre cbs tortoise guards but that one doesn't look right to me. It's too bad because the 1965 stratocaster he's selling in ice blue metallic is lovely, that one looks more legitimate but the look of that 61 makes me doubt it. I might be wrong but both of them expired at the prices he had listed in the last auction, his parts have been sitting for awhile too.

    People seem cautious in general about international sellers. There is a seller from Portugal who keeps listing pre CBS that never ticks up/sells. His prices are high but I have to think the international component plays a factor. I was bidding on some parts recently for a resto project that I wanted to grab, the seller was from the USA and offloaded a ton of rare vintage guitar and some pre cbs stuff was among it. He had a 62 neck and a 62 tortoise guard assembly all original, they looked right to me but got bid up super hard, both went for around 5k.
     

  13. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    If the guy from Portugal is on Reverb than stay away
     
    Adam Wolfaardt likes this.

  14. strat_strummer

    strat_strummer Senior Stratmaster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    56
    Dec 17, 2017
    Here, there, everywhere....
    And $100 shipping on top of the $16 grand. That just bothers me to no end.
     

  15. MuscularDad

    MuscularDad Strat-Talk Member

    Age:
    28
    23
    Feb 22, 2018
    NYC
    Yeah that's the one lol, he's been selling on Ebay too and I recognized the name. His stuff on Ebay wasn't getting up very high, he had a set of 1964 pickups listed with a reserve price, not sure what the reserve was but it maxed out at 1600 and never hit it.

    It just seemed fishy to me that he had that much pre cbs stuff, and one of the pickguards he was selling looked off to me, good to know that he's somebody to watch out for. Is there a list anywhere of sellers who are known to be illegitimate or who people have been burned by?

    The seller who was moving that other stuff I was talking about ebay was pc1guitars and it all looked legit to me, an impressive collection for sure.
     

  16. Adam Wolfaardt

    Adam Wolfaardt Strat-Talker

    Age:
    46
    307
    Jan 2, 2017
    France
    The Portuguese guy on reverb is definitely a fraud. Most of what he sells is obviously fake. I can't understand how he gets good feedback
     
    Mipstoo likes this.

  17. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    And he keeps on selling. I've reported some of his listings. He's being clever and mixes real vintage parts and repro parts. So some are legit, but a lot is total BS.
    He's sold bodies, a lot of pickups, pickguard, plastics and saddles that are definitely reproductions. Beginning of the year I made a calculation on his sold listings and it added up to nearly 20K of fake products sold.
    I contacted him in the beginning when he started about some tuners that appeared to be tempered with (plastic knobs replaced by reissue metal ones), he pulled the listing and told me he purchased them like that and that he would contact the seller. A week later he contacted me again to apologize that he had to relist them with no disclosure of the truth because he needed to get his return on investment back. Apparently the seller wouldn't take them back. :rolleyes:
    No qualms about betraying people whatsoever... :mad:
     
    westonmitch and Adam Wolfaardt like this.

  18. hgute70

    hgute70 New Member!

    Age:
    42
    4
    Jul 16, 2018
    Sydney
    I messaged the guy and challenged him on the neck being listed on the sale of his 65, plus questioned him about the pick guard and whether or not it'd had a refin. His reply is below. I smell bull**** on the shield response. What say you? Surely if you had a legit 61, you would have it checked out and verified before listing in order to maximize it's sale price???? Given he had the neck listed for sale separately, I have a suspicion it's a newer body and guard with 61 parts.

    "sorry I put the wrong photo up of the head stock from the 61 I changed it to the correct one 65

    the shell pick guard is original to the guitar early 61 they where still using the small shield and using up what stock they had left.. they started using tortoise guard 4 ply around the same time on some strats. the stain from the outside edge of the shield is on the back of the pick guard to say that it is the original shield to that guard they stopped using the nitro cell in 65 for 3 ply plastic.

    I have had these 2 guitars since the early 80,s and don't know much of their history prior that if I was 100% sure about the finish I would be asking $50,000
    plus for them like you find on other sites. hence the price point i have set them at."
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
    Bazz Jass likes this.

  19. Bazz Jass

    Bazz Jass Chairman of the Fingerboard Strat-Talk Supporter

    Nov 19, 2014
    Up a lazy river
    It's a gamble - verification may maximise or minimise the value. Seller, like many before him, is playing the middle ground.
     

  20. hgute70

    hgute70 New Member!

    Age:
    42
    4
    Jul 16, 2018
    Sydney
    Indeed.