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Is my strat a pre CBS or a CBS era ?

Discussion in 'Pre-CBS Strats (before 1966)' started by Guillaume212, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Guillaume212

    Guillaume212 Strat-Talk Member

    Age:
    44
    17
    Jan 1, 2018
    Paris France
    Hi everybody

    I am the very lucky owner since last saturday of a 1965 Stratocaster, the serial number is 1001xx, so it means it's one of the first post "L" Plate number ever made.

    It has the pre cbs small headstock, so I was wandering ...

    1/ should my strat be considered as a pre CBS or as a CBS era ? (i think its supposed to be a pre CBS as the real turning to the CBS era is considered to be the change for the large headstock,

    But is anybody can confirme this fact ?

    2/Is anybody have an idea on how many post L serie (100xxx) guitar has been produced with the small headstock ?

    Thank you un advance of anybody have those informations

    Guillaume
     
  2. altar

    altar Former Member

    458
    Oct 4, 2016
    USA
    I would think it's CBS era since CBS owned the company by that time, I'm interested to hear what other people think though.
     
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  3. Guy Named Sue

    Guy Named Sue Beer me up Scotty Strat-Talk Supporter

    Feb 11, 2015
    Terra Incognito
    Well technically it would be a transition era, but formally it's pre CBS you got there. Care to share some pics?
     
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  4. Guillaume212

    Guillaume212 Strat-Talk Member

    Age:
    44
    17
    Jan 1, 2018
    Paris France
    Thank u for your answer -)

    I Will post pictures at the end of the week (I am currently out of home for a few days)

    Its really a super nice guitar, i found it in a vintage guitar shop in Paris/France ! I had the chance to compare it for 2 hours to :
    - a 1964
    - another 1964
    - à 1959 slaboard (refin)
    - a 1966
    - à 1968

    To my ears (and also the seller ears), this 1965 had the best powerful, crispy and juicy sound while plugged in a Jam Pedal (tube screamer clone), i prefered it over some older (and more expensive) Strat's

    The seller told me the guitar as be a one owner since 1966, a professional local musician who played it intensively for over 5 decades...i am trying to get in touch with the owner, i left my cell number to the shop so they will try to transfer it to him,...hoping he will call me back...i really would'like to talk to him about the guitar...it would be very nice to be able to keep in touch with him.

    The guitar is all original except for
    - à 5 way switch that the owner put a while ago.
    - a pro refrett and neck overspray that he also did...the actual frets are a little tired, i guess i will nées to refret it again some day...

    Apart from that, the guitar is in a super shape, the tuners and bridge are quitte rusted, the salesguy told me that the previous owner must be à someone who was sweating a lot while playing guitar

    The neck is dated October 1965
    The guitar comes with the bridge protection (ashtray) and the tag that was attached to the headstock and also the box of the original Fender strings that were given at the time. The case is the one given at the time in the local european music store, (but it's not an original Fender one ...)

    It anybody knows approximately how many 100xxx Strat with a small headstock had been made before switching to the large headstock that would be very nice.

    Thank you
    Cheers
    Guillaume.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  5. Major Gruber

    Major Gruber Strat-Talker

    107
    Sep 26, 2015
    Colombes, France
    CBS bought Fender in January 65, so, Historically, it's an early CBS one. But as they didn't have time to spoil all the quality production in one year, it's more a pre-CBS. The big headstock is known to be a 66 spec. Tu l'as acheté rue de Douai chez Hertz? C'est la comparaison avec la 59 slab refin qui m'y fait penser ;)
     
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  6. Bazz Jass

    Bazz Jass Chairman of the Fingerboard Strat-Talk Supporter

    Nov 19, 2014
    Up a lazy river
    What are the dates of the neck, pickups, pots? All should be stamped. You may find some or all of these parts are pre Jan 65....
     
  7. Tone Guru

    Tone Guru Senior Stratmaster

    Dec 13, 2011
    Music City TN
    My own feeling on the "Pre-CBS vs CBS" matter is that it should be determined by features that were instituted by CBS and not already in the pipeline by Leo.

    Most of the features that define a 1965 Strat were started before Jan 1965 for example:
    pearl dots
    transition decal with 4 patents
    grey bottom pickups
    curved fretboard

    Other than the easily identifiable large headstock that appears in Dec 1965, the features that I can think of that came about during the course of 1965 were "F" on the neckplate and the change from rubber to metal springs for the pickup mountings.
    Does your guitar have metal pickup springs ?

    I'm willing to accept that small headstock1965 Stratocasters can be considered "Pre-CBS".
    I'm also willing to accept that a purist would classify the presence of an F-plate and metal pickup springs as being CBS attributes.
    Anyone else have a better weasle schpiel ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  8. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    Well, first of all, bienvenu.

    Nice that you found a good guitar and you're happy with it.
    Technically, it is a CBS guitar. All guitars from after January 1965 are CBS guitars. However, there were a lot of transitions during this period and there was still some stock left of parts from before the CBS takeover. And honestly, you shouldn't care too much about it if the guitar is a good player.

    Bought in the Pigalle area? I think I have an idea of where you might have scored the guitar.
     
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  9. Ebidis

    Ebidis Providing the world with flat bends since 1985 Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    52
    Nov 14, 2013
    Alabama
    My feeling is that if CBS owned the company at the time, then it is a CBS Strat. After January 1965, and before FMIC bought the company in 1984, All Strats were CBS Strats.
     
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  10. rolandson

    rolandson Most Honored Senior Member

    It's an early CBS with a pre CBS neck, technically referred to as a "transition." Check the body cavity and the pot codes. It may be that more than the neck can be thought of as "pre", though for all practical purposes it's still a CBS Strat.

    Which matters not at all, as it appears that you are very very happy with it!

    I've a Super Reverb in which the pots, speakers, and transformers are dated 1966...everything except the " T" number stamped inside the chassis, which is that of an amp from 1967...thus the amp is a '67...with '66 parts.
     
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  11. Guillaume212

    Guillaume212 Strat-Talk Member

    Age:
    44
    17
    Jan 1, 2018
    Paris France
    Hi everyybody and thank you for your messages !

    The pickups are grey bottom pencil dated 11-16-65, how to understand exactly the "11-16"
    The pots ate dated 6510 : it means 10 week of 65 right ?

    It comes from Pigalle area yes but not Hertz -) ... the other big vintage shop of the street, the biggest one actually

    Yes i am really happy wth it I think it's the guitar I was looking for a long time now !-)
     
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  12. Guillaume212

    Guillaume212 Strat-Talk Member

    Age:
    44
    17
    Jan 1, 2018
    Paris France
    Hi Tone guru, I am not sure how to identify this one ..., would you have a comparative pictures of the the 2 kind of pickups ?
    Or I will send à picture of the pickups'soon
     
  13. Guillaume212

    Guillaume212 Strat-Talk Member

    Age:
    44
    17
    Jan 1, 2018
    Paris France
    Salut Major Grubber,

    Elle vient de chez Guitar Collection ils ont également une 59 refin !-)

    Et toi, as-tu une/des strats vintages ?

    Guillaume.
     
    Mansonienne likes this.
  14. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    So pickups were finished in November '65, pots are stock parts and were manufactured the 10th week of 65. Pickups are Enamel wired. Very nice for a more modern sound.

    Small headstock, transition logo with 4 patent numbers?

    Any idea about the date on the heel of the neck?

    Sounds to me you have a transition era guitar and the discussion has been had before, but there is no major difference between these and the pre-cbs ones. You'll find some nice examples in every year...

    Bon à savoir qu'ils ont une 59 refin... Merci
     
  15. Ebidis

    Ebidis Providing the world with flat bends since 1985 Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    52
    Nov 14, 2013
    Alabama
    11-16 is November 16.
     
  16. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    In this case it would probably be 16th of November '65 ;)
     
  17. Ebidis

    Ebidis Providing the world with flat bends since 1985 Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    52
    Nov 14, 2013
    Alabama
    Thank you Sherlock. ;):p
     
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  18. usul1978

    usul1978 Guitar bricolo Strat-Talk Supporter

    Dec 9, 2015
    France
    He means how the pickups are stabilised on the screws.(ressort ou morceau de tube plastique comme "amortisseur" sur les vis de fixation des micros)
     
  19. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    This one?

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Guillaume212

    Guillaume212 Strat-Talk Member

    Age:
    44
    17
    Jan 1, 2018
    Paris France
    Français aussi -)

    Oui et elle vaut le coup d'être essayée je pense cette 59 Sonic blue refin, ...elle m'a pas mal plu ...refin par didier dubosq mais je crois qu'hormis cela elle est 100% stock, sélecteur 3 positions inclus (bon j'ai pas regardé dedans c'est ce que l'on m'a dit ...) je dois dire que j'ai un peu hésité avec la 59, une 50's c'est la grande classe ...mais au final je préfèrais le son de la 65 ...plus fat, plus riche en harmonique à mes oreilles...et le fait qu'elle ait son vernis original comptait aussi pour moi...

    The Neck is dated OCTOBER 65 -)

    For the 4 patent numbers, I need to check, I don't have the guitar with me before Thursday !
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018