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Lacquer question

Discussion in 'Stratocaster Discussion Forum' started by eyerish, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. eyerish

    eyerish Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 15, 2009
    Arizona
    In the early days of fender it was a poly finish than a nitro lacquer.

    Is the new mims in lacquer the same or just straight lacquer.

    Road worns and non roadworns.
     
  2. John C

    John C Senior Stratmaster

    Jul 17, 2012
    Kansas City
    Sorry; I'm not quite sure what you're asking - are you asking for Fender's entire history going back to 1950 or just what they were doing at the Mexico factory?
     
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  3. eyerish

    eyerish Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 15, 2009
    Arizona


    I want to know if the new mim lacquers i.e. road worns and the non road worns are just lacquer or the old fender way of lacquer over a poly base.
     
  4. Ronkirn

    Ronkirn Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    72
    May 26, 2006
    Jacksonville, FL
    Well first, the lacquers used back in then 50's and 60's are no longer available. The Environmental Regulation Agency has banned many of the different compounds and chemicals used back then.

    While the modern versions are quite good, they are not the same... Thus what was used as a primer/sealer isn't really relevant any longer...

    the guitar manufacturers are quite keen to use the phrase nitrocellulose lacquer in an effort to convince "you" that the finish being used today is the same as that used back then but... they omit the finer points which would allow us to make an informed decision regarding the paint and identify the significant differences between modern formulas and those used back then.

    I use this illustration to make the point about how misinformation can be dead on perfectly accurate, but by omitting a few facts, "you" can be steered to make an absurdly wrong decision..

    Below are two photographs of "work shoes".. both offer tow protection, ankle support, reenforced sole, and detailed craftsmanship...

    rk

    ballet.jpg Red-Wing-.jpg
     
  5. stratman323

    stratman323 Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    58
    Apr 21, 2010
    London, UK
    This quite simply doesn't make sense.
     
  6. stratman323

    stratman323 Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    58
    Apr 21, 2010
    London, UK
    The Road Worns are not even nitro finished, despite the advertising claims that Fender made about them. The bodies may have had a nitro finish (though who knows whether or not they had a poly base coat?) but the necks were always 100% poly, meaning that necks will never wear more than they were worn when the customer bought them. The level of dishonesty in the advertising for the Road Worns surprised even me
     
  7. Ronkirn

    Ronkirn Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    72
    May 26, 2006
    Jacksonville, FL
    true, but that's a predicate of the lack of knowledge regarding "lacquer" as a Noun, such as, "I want my guitar finished with Lacquer", and/or as a Verb.. as in, "I'm gonna get some Dupont Duco and lacquer my guitar.."

    various "entities" exploit the "media" to foist an incorrect understanding of "facts" that support their agendas on the public... it's going on big time in the News Media right now...

    In most cases those using the Media aren't stupid enough to outright lie... they just tell the "truth" but conveniently omit any germane information with doesn't advance their agenda. Those without a more comprehensive understanding of the "topic" can be left drawing a completely incorrect conclusion.

    The advertising of guitars finished in Nitrocellulose Lacquers is a major area that effects many purchasing guitars, in which such "strategies" are exploited.

    Note, there is only one reason to mention the paint used on a guitar, i. e. to exploit some characteristic that advances "your" music.

    That might be durability, as a characteristic of polymeric finishes.. However when "Nitro" is mentioned there is only one reason to do so, that would be to advance the incorrect notion that it in someway enhances the sound of a guitar in a positive way. Notice I included the adjective, "incorrect." There's a reason..

    The reality is, Nitrocellulose Lacquer was created in the '30's... and in the ensuing, almost 90 years, the basic formulations have evolved. They continue doing so. As a result the "Nitros" available today, as a product of that evolution, are no more similar than "we" (Homo Sapiens) are, as a species, when compared to our origins, "Lucy" (Australopithecus) of 3.2 - 4.3 million years ago...

    (those of ya with a Doctorate in Physical Anthropology, just stuff it...) unless ya can tie it into "paint". :p


    rk
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  8. Jason99

    Jason99 Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 26, 2014
    Los Angeles
    Brilliant as always Ron.
     
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  9. dueducs

    dueducs Senior Stratmaster

    Mine is in Archaeology/Anthropology and I say, well done, Sir. Well done. :D:D:D
     
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  10. bluesman1956

    bluesman1956 Strat-O-Master

    867
    Dec 3, 2012
    Upstate NY
    Ron, I believe you had a more detailed response to this subject a while back. “Go Gators”
     
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  11. John C

    John C Senior Stratmaster

    Jul 17, 2012
    Kansas City
    Thanks for clarifying.

    I'm 95% sure that Fender has confirmed the Classic Lacquer models are lacquer over a poly base, but I don't know about the RoadWorns - they might not be using the poly base to make them easier to relic at the factory.
     
  12. Ronkirn

    Ronkirn Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    72
    May 26, 2006
    Jacksonville, FL
    Yeah, I'm sure, I've been over it quite extensively over the years.... and Yep, Go Gators... but.. today, it's Vandy, and being the SEC, ANYONE can jump up 'n bite ya in a heart beat... Just look at LSU last week.... I betcha they're still wondering WTF happened...

    rk
     
  13. Ronkirn

    Ronkirn Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    72
    May 26, 2006
    Jacksonville, FL
    That is as completely useless info as imaginable.... neither are the type of Lacquer, and/or Nitrocellulose Lacquer, and/or the type Poly are stated.. So "you" are left with one giant ??? .. go look at those shoes again.... are they the same? They can certainly be described as such.

    And the Journalist in me has it's curiosity piqued .. Why exactly are they mentioning the paint at all? is it not to convey the illusion that it is in some way connected to the Nitros used during the Golden Years.. and does not that suggest they have some knowledge of the prevailing trend where many are concluding that Nitro has some positive impact on the sound of the guitar. Am I incorrect to think they are attempting to capitalize on the lack of basics regarding Nitrocellulose lacquer?

    If so, and it HAS to be so, then in their position and as a Leader in the industry shouldn't there be at the very least the info contained therein that explains what's happened to the paint over the years and/or any supporting information that would prove the inferred superiority of the Nitro?

    Some Manufacturers are STILL using the phrase "breathing" wood and "resonance" as though they can ONLY result in positive things happening.... Wood cannot possibly breathe.. and the property of resonance in a guitar's body CAN result in either Great tone, OR Horrible Tone... it CAN go either way... ever hear of Wolf Notes.. what do ya think contributes to 'em?

    It's either just culpable negligence, or an outright attempt to capitalize on the market's ignorance...

    Guys Pay Attention... there are NO miracles exist that will make ya sound like whomever you want to sound like,.. As your Dad would scold, "Use your head for something other than as a Hat rack." None of this stuff is Rocket Science...

    rk
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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  14. eyerish

    eyerish Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 15, 2009
    Arizona

    Thanks i was told by a friend in Scottsdale the same but that he wasnt sure(?).

    And to the other respondants.
    Thanks as well. Insults not withstanding of course.

    I have played guitars since the 60s and i like the looks and wear of the less encased "lacquers".

    I have a very reasonable understanding of wood and finishes and its effects accordingly.

    My question had to do with simply verifying the particulars of the presence or lack thereof of the base used as that has much to do with the guitars appearance to me.

    Being a trained cabinet maker (college even, although my initial major back in the 70s was aeronautical engineering)

    I claim no grand exceptional knowledge and i am certainly no journalist ( i felt the ethics class requirements in college for that course to be superfluous and a wee farcical).

    I do however much appreciate both the kind responses and the education.

    I will now take my excoriated hat-rack and go.

    Thanks all
    Play On
     
  15. The Ballzz

    The Ballzz Senior Stratmaster

    Feb 26, 2014
    LAS VEGAS , NV
    The biggest differences I've noted between poly and supposed "nitro lacquer" seems to be the way it flakes off of improperly prepared surfaces, along with how thickly it is often applied. I personally prefer working with "somewhat old school" types of lacquer, most because of how it levels and dries quickly enough for bugs to not settle into it. I also like the way it looks and the illusion of depth it can provide, especially in translucent applications. Of course, none of my above comments even pertain to the claims made by the advertising departments of guitar manufacturers.
    Just My Useless $.02,
    Gene
     
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  16. The Ballzz

    The Ballzz Senior Stratmaster

    Feb 26, 2014
    LAS VEGAS , NV
    OUCH! :eek: :cool:
    Just Sayin'
    Gene
     
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  17. eyerish

    eyerish Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 15, 2009
    Arizona

    I also like the look and that was the point of my curiosity as i have not personally handled these new ones.

    It can be very attractive over polys for sure. As you say if done right.
     
  18. Martins Strat

    Martins Strat Strat-Talker

    184
    Jul 28, 2018
    UK
    I understand the points made in this thread but I suspect that the majority of Fenders customers are making decisions about Nitro vs Polly not based on sound or how chemically similar the finishes are to those of the 50’s or 60’s but because of how they age, or don’t.

    Certainly one of the reasons the AV finish appealed to me is because of how it will age, chip and ‘relic’ over time. That’s not marketing nonsense, it’s a genuine difference between the finishes and is already proving to be quite a noticeable difference from personal experience.
     
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  19. John C

    John C Senior Stratmaster

    Jul 17, 2012
    Kansas City
    Well I should have said "Fender's current version of nitro over whatever poly undercoat they have used since the 1980s on AVs" and been specific. But you're correct, there is a lot of marketing hyperbole around finishes as people try to "crack the DNA code" of why a particular vintage guitar sounds good. Never minding that a very similar vintage guitar (same model, same year, same color even) is just barely fair playing and/or sounding with the same finish.

    EDIT: Not that I even buy into the idea that these finishes are better than poly: of the guitars I've owned over the past 39 years maybe 1/4 have had some kind of nitro finish, but I didn't seek them out for the finish, they just happened to have it. For example, I sought out AVRI Strats for a while because I liked the neck shape and the pickups better than the American Standards of the same era. The finish was just part of the guitar. Same for the handful of Gibsons that I've owned over the years.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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  20. Mr C

    Mr C Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    45
    Feb 17, 2016
    New Zealand
    Until the internet came along to tell me otherwise as far as I knew guitars all just had ‘paint’ on them