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S-1 wiring help needed

Discussion in 'Tech-Talk' started by wrvond, Feb 14, 2015.

  1. wrvond

    wrvond Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 22, 2011
    West Virginia
    Installed all the components of an American Deluxe 50th Anniversary Strat - S-1 switch, tone control, no load tone control, and 5 position super switch using Fender Lace sensors (three wire).

    I initially wired it up using the Fender wiring diagram. When I tap tested, everything worked fine with the S-1 in the up position, but not all pickups worked in the down position. Unfortunately, I didn't record which ones didn't work, though I suspect it was only the middle pickup.
    I de-soldered the 5 way and rewired using a drawing from another forum, but it still doesn't work correctly. Everything works great except for the middle pup. Please refer to the following images:

    This is what I'm supposed to have:
    [​IMG]

    This is what I have:
    [​IMG]
     

  2. wrvond

    wrvond Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 22, 2011
    West Virginia
    Here is the Fender drawing I used initially:
    http://support.fender.com/service_diagrams/stratocaster/011-2004803A_SISD.pdf

    This is the diagram I used to get where I am now:
    [​IMG]

    Since all the pickups work in some fashion or another, I'm sure my soldering isn't the culprit. It seems like it's got to be a problem with the 5 way configuration, but I really don't understand the 5 way enough to visualize how it makes its connections. I did suspect the center pickup might be wired incorrectly, but on both diagrams, the center pickup has (in this case) the white and green wires grounded to a pot case and the orange wire attached to the S-1 switch.

    Suggestions are most appreciated.
     

  3. JohnDH

    JohnDH Senior Stratmaster

    A really useful simple diagnostic is to measure the overall resistance in all (5up + 5down =10) positions. Put a multimeter across a guitar cord plugged in, use a 200k or 20k Ohms range. All knobs at max. The 20k range is best, unless you go off the scale in the series modes.

    Then, for all 10 positions, tap each pickup with a screwdriver while plugged in, to positively identify which coils are active and which aren't.

    if you don't figure it out from that, post a table of all those results here and we will consider further.

    ps

    Here is how the S1 switch lugs are connected in the up (A) and down (B) positions: (from tdpri forum)

    [​IMG]
     

  4. wrvond

    wrvond Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 22, 2011
    West Virginia
    These are the values I got at each of the positions.
    I already know that all the pickups are active when they are supposed to be active when the S-1 switch is UP.
    When the S-1 switch is DOWN, all pickups are active as they should be except for the middle pickup. It is not active in any positions.

    With the switch down:

    position 1 = Neck plus Middle - it is 13.04K but should be about 20.12K
    position 2 = Neck in parallel with the .05 uF capacitor plus the middle pickup - it is 13.04K but should be about 20.12K (the capacitor effect should be negligible)
    position 3 = Neck in parallel with bridge plus middle = 6.96K but should be about 20.69K if I am figuring correctly
    position 4 = Middle plus bridge in parallel with the .05 uF capacitor - it is 14.18K but I think it should be around 21.26K
    position 5 = Middle plus bridge - it is 14.18K but should be 21.26K without the effect of the capacitor.
    I imagine the purpose of the capacitor is to act as a treble bleed or similar to provide a tone difference between positions 1;2 and 4;5.
     

    Attached Files:


  5. wrvond

    wrvond Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 22, 2011
    West Virginia
    Now that I know how the S-1 switch works - I can see that in the UP position, the hot (orange) lead of the center pickup is connected through the S-1 to lugs 2 and 4 on the left wafer of the 5 position switch. When the S-1 is down, that same lead is connected to the white (finishing) leads of the neck and bridge pickups, lug 3 on the right wafer, and to lugs 2 and 4 on the left wafer through the capacitor.
    I have no idea what the signal path is in the super switch, and I'm strongly suspecting an incorrect path through there is the culprit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2015

  6. JohnDH

    JohnDH Senior Stratmaster

    Will think about those...

    On superswitches, the end lugs are the common lugs, and they get connected in turn to the 5 nearest lugs inside of them, on the same side of the switch. And due to the rotary nature of the switch, when you pull the knob towards the bridge, it is the lugs on each bank nearest the neck that get connected.

    A, B, C, D are the common connections or poles,. 1A, 1B etc are the lugs they connect to.

    A... B
    5A 5B
    4A 4B
    3A 3B
    2A 2B
    1A 1B
    5C 5D
    4C 4D
    3C 3D
    2C 2D
    1C 1D
    C... D
     

  7. wrvond

    wrvond Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 22, 2011
    West Virginia
    In that case I should have said:
    I can see that in the UP position, the hot (orange) lead of the center pickup is connected through the S-1 to lugs A2 and A4 of the 5 position switch. When the S-1 is down, that same lead is connected to the white (finishing) leads of the neck and bridge pickups and B3, and to lugs A2 and A4 through the capacitor.

    Always a learning experience. Thanks John!
     

  8. wrvond

    wrvond Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 22, 2011
    West Virginia
    Well, I removed everything and started over from scratch. Very carefully and accurately wired everything in accordance with Fender's wiring diagram with exactly the same results. Everything works exactly as it should with the exception of the middle pickup with the S-1 pushed down.
    Either I've got a bad S-1, or nobody else's S-1 equipped Strats have working middle pickups with the S-1 down either!
     

  9. rabbithowls

    rabbithowls Senior Stratmaster

    Jul 11, 2014
    Colorado Springs
    Did you remember the capacitor on the s-1? I made that mistake once.
     

  10. moosie

    moosie Senior Stratmaster

    Feb 19, 2014
    Connecticut
    I tend to redraw everything, as it makes it easier for me to work with. Not necessarily helpful to anyone else, but just in case, here's my rendition of what you're trying to do.

    This circuit will work as described, I'm sure of it.

    Pay attention to the orientation of the S-1. The switch terminals aren't symmetrical.

    [​IMG]
     

  11. wrvond

    wrvond Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 22, 2011
    West Virginia
    Thanks for the thoughts, guys.
    Yep, I remembered the cap. Checked that sucker many times! :)
    Current thoughts are that the specials cap is bad, which would block the middle coil when the S-1 is down for sure.
    I'm still getting over a case of strep throat, so haven't opened it back up to check, but will at my earliest opportunity.
    Moosie, thanks for going to the trouble of drawing that out. I'll be sure to compare it closely with what I have as well.
     

  12. moosie

    moosie Senior Stratmaster

    Feb 19, 2014
    Connecticut
    I'm open to being corrected here, but I don't think the 'special' cap circuit being open would stop Middle from sounding.

    With S-1 down, every position is M in series with <something>. All you get is the <something>.

    If the series circuit was broken, you'd get nothing.

    If the specials cap circuit was broken, you'd still get M in series with the other pickup(s). You just wouldn't get the effect of the cap being applied to that other pickup. And it wouldn't affect positions 1,3,5, where the special cap isn't in the circuit at all.

    What is more likely, is that somehow you're shorting B- and N- to ground, instead of connecting them to M+. I'd have to think carefully what might make this happen without affecting S-1 UP, but that's the area to examine, I think. And that's why I thought you should be absolutely sure that you've oriented the S-1 correctly.
     

  13. wrvond

    wrvond Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 22, 2011
    West Virginia
    When you're right you're right. I was thinking middle was parallel.
    However, I'm 100% sure the specials cap is in the correct sockets.
     

  14. moosie

    moosie Senior Stratmaster

    Feb 19, 2014
    Connecticut
    What about the rest of the S1?

    I don't mean to beat on this, but you obviously have something wrong, and I can't see it from here...

    When you look at the bottom of the S1 pot, like it's shown, with the pg flipped over... Are your volume pot lugs on the right like I've drawn? If, for example, you were to spin the pot 90 degrees, and then solder everything apparently 'as shown', it would be wrong.

    I assume you've checked and rechecked all solder joints. I'd go through and reflow every one. They should be clean and shiny.

    You don't have B- and/or N- wired to ground, do you? They're on the S-1, right?

    Sorry for all the obvious stuff...

    Keep checking. Good luck.

    Oh, is your cavity shielded? If so, does it short when you close the pickguard up? Crowded wiring...
     

  15. wrvond

    wrvond Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 22, 2011
    West Virginia
    Well, I'm stymied.
    I desoldered everything and started from scratch. Spent three hours very carefully wiring everything and checking each and every connection.
    Same condition as before. Everything works exactly as it should except the middle pickup when the switch is down. Otherwise, everything is perfect.
    Moosie, I used your drawing, which, while it is much more clear, is exactly the same as the Fender drawing, which only reinforces that if it is wired per the drawings (I swear it is! ) everything should be working.
    So, I'm back for more ideas (hope someone has some).
    Here are some pics:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     

  16. moosie

    moosie Senior Stratmaster

    Feb 19, 2014
    Connecticut
    Refreshing my memory...

    So, when the S-1 is DOWN, engaged, the middle position is supposed to be Middle in series with the combination of (Neck + Bridge in parallel).

    And you're getting N+B in parallel, only? No M? Is that right? And all the other positions work as expected?

    How are you certain that you're getting N+B? How are you certain there's no M?

    [and yes, my diagram is supposed to be identical to Fender's]

    Thanks.
     

  17. wrvond

    wrvond Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 22, 2011
    West Virginia
    Using a small screwdriver to tap the pickups I get these results (neck is position 5):
    5: neck on, middle silent
    4: neck on, middle silent
    3: neck and bridge on, middle silent
    2: middle silent, bridge on
    1: middle silent, bridge on

    With the switch up, the middle works as expected, so I know the pickup is good.
    I am losing the middle pup somewhere with the switch down. I don't know if it is an open circuit or shorted, though open seems most likely.
    Anyway, I really appreciate you taking time to try to figure this out.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015

  18. wrvond

    wrvond Senior Stratmaster

    Mar 22, 2011
    West Virginia
    Regarding the S1 orientation. Regardless of where it is physically pointing, S1 terminal 2 is located directly above the volume pot center lug. Terminal 2 holds B- and N-. S1 terminal 3 is just to the left with M+ connected which is jumpered to terminals 4 and 10 then to 12 through the specials cap.
     

  19. JohnDH

    JohnDH Senior Stratmaster

    The switch-down options put the middle in series. So if M is not contributing but the other pups are, then there must be a short across M rather thab an open circuit/disconnection (which would kill all sound)
     

  20. moosie

    moosie Senior Stratmaster

    Feb 19, 2014
    Connecticut
    Perhaps I misunderstood, or misremembered.
    Middle is silent in ALL positions with S1 down. I thought you were saying just in position 3.

    Okay, M common is hardwired to ground. When the S-1 is down, M+ is supposed to connect to B- and N-. And then depending if B+ and/or N+ are connected to hot, B or N may be out of the circuit.
    Since M works with the S1 up, then only with S1 down, M+ is wrongly connecting to ground, somehow. Including the possibility of shorting against the cavity shielding when you cram it all back together. (Eliminate this by doing the screwdriver test with the pg off the guitar.)

    Use a meter and test continuity between ground and M+. I bet it beeps with S1 down. The grounding is happening either around the specials cap, or... I notice you have a single white wire on the middle S1 terminal, where B- and N- are supposed to be. I assume that traces back to somewhere you've spliced them together. Can't tell in the photo. Make sure there's no ground connection in that area.