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strange pre-cbs '64 strat

Discussion in 'Pre-CBS Strats (before 1966)' started by stratowine, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. stratowine

    stratowine New Member!

    Age:
    29
    4
    Dec 2, 2017
    italy
    Hi,
    a friend of mine (+50y acoustic guitar player) has got this strange pre-cbs strat from his passed away uncle and could sell it to me.
    Neck is a '64 but the body seems older to me because of screws positioning. I think this is an old refin.
    The sound is really awesome.
    Fretboard has finger wear marks on first frets.
    Case is and old Selmer croc skin so i'm pretty sure this guitar came from UK.
    How much could be the value?
    more pics here: imgur.com/a/ZiPpk
    [​IMG]
     
    sikoniko and vlxerdon like this.

  2. dueducs

    dueducs Senior Stratmaster

    She's very cool looking, but you're going to need to provide a lot more pix, with detail of the pots, neck heel, etc etc in order for anyone to be able to suggest a value.
     

  3. stratowine

    stratowine New Member!

    Age:
    29
    4
    Dec 2, 2017
    italy

  4. stratman323

    stratman323 Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    57
    Apr 21, 2010
    London, UK
    I'm just joining the thread to hear what others have to say. It certainly looks good!
     

  5. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Strat-Talker

    410
    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    So, first of all, welcome to the forum. I hope we will be able to help you.
    What I notice from the pictures behind the link provided:

    - The case is a Selmer croc case, typical for UK imported Fender guitars up till '64/'65 and also a lot of other models.
    - Tuners appear correct, single line, so up till '64 these were used.
    - Neck plate looks correct, L-serial dates to '64, but this is the least accurate to date the guitar.
    - Decal appears to be '63/'64
    - Fingerboard dots look "clay" vulcanised fibreboard dot, with 12th fret spacing close together. Very short transition period possible 1st half of '64. This is in line with the 2APR64B neck date
    - Pickguard screw placement puts the body, if real, in '63 or before, not from '64.
    - Pickguard and shield look real
    - Pickups look real

    Remarks:
    - I don't think the volume and tone knobs are original. Numbers appear too large
    - The finish on the body is aged, but not naturally, spiderweb checking rarely happens on old strats. Also some of the wear doesn't look authentic. Probably refinished and aged. Also the "thick" layer of paint seen on some pictures of the cavities suggest this is a refin.
    - The neck pocket was carefully protected when refinished, it still shows the paint stick and some traces of black suggest that this was a sunburst before.
    - The pots don't look to be original. They should be stackpole or CTS. Not sure this is the case. The pot codes (numbers on the pots) would help determine this.

    So, the '63 body/'64 neck is somewhat strange, but not impossible. A lot of inconsistencies are possible for these guitars.
    In my opinion it is definitely refinished and mostly complete. More pictures and better inspection are needed to fully guarantee it is what it is suggested to be, but a lot checks out.

    Price? ;) Whatever you're prepared to pay for it I'd guess. Refins go from 6.000 € to 11.000€, depending on the rest of the guitar and whoever sells/buys.
     
    johnnymg, crashbelt, jofish and 2 others like this.

  6. inra311

    inra311 Strat-Talker

    230
    Oct 12, 2008
    Europe
    +1 to Mipstoo

    In case the body is original '64 and the pickguard has been swapped to an older one, the screw hole near the middle pickup might still be there. If it is smaller than the others this would be indication of a refin. The way the blue laquer has cracked looks a bit like a relicing job to me
     

  7. inra311

    inra311 Strat-Talker

    230
    Oct 12, 2008
    Europe
    And check if the two screws of the output jak are longer than the pickguard screw
     

  8. Bazz Jass

    Bazz Jass Chairman of the Fingerboard Strat-Talk Supporter

    Nov 19, 2014
    Comfy Chair
    More experts will chime in, but at the very least I can state as a fact the tuners aren't original. Single line Klusons from that era, without exception show the full word "deluxe" on the back. Reissues only get just past "delu"....

    The repros on the strat in question are very deliberately well aged....

    I have other concerns, but will wait for others to chip in... @Jonny Hotnuts

    Real Klusons:

    Kluson.JPG

    Repros:

    [​IMG]
     
    Yves, Mipstoo, jofish and 1 other person like this.

  9. inra311

    inra311 Strat-Talker

    230
    Oct 12, 2008
    Europe
    Isn't the cable channel that runs along the pickup cavities narrower than normal?

    BZkxRzA.jpg

    original '64:
    IMG_4090.JPG

    And definitely no original finish. Original is thinner and still allows to see the rather crude Fender routing job, including all the router marks.
     
    Yves, Bazz Jass and Paperback Rocker like this.

  10. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Strat-Talker

    410
    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    Didn't even notice it... :oops:
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017

  11. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Strat-Talker

    410
    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    It's hard to tell. It looks smaller. There are other things that bug me, but impossible to tell without more and better pictures.
    I would like to see better pictures of the bridge and saddles, which are very corroded, as are all other metal parts. So it's conform.
    Nail holes aren't filled with paint, so again the effort was took to keep them visible.
     

  12. Guitar0621

    Guitar0621 Strat-Talk Member

    67
    May 24, 2017
    USA
    The neck looks pretty legit but the body-- even the guard and stuff look like they might be partscaster. The tuners will tell you about the whole thing, probably.
     
    johnnymg likes this.

  13. Guy Named Sue

    Guy Named Sue Beer me up Scotty Strat-Talk Supporter

    Feb 11, 2015
    Sweden
    I'm confused, I only see one picture of this guitar how are you guys able to determine so much from that one picture?
     
    mad axe man and johnnymg like this.

  14. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Strat-Talker

    410
    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    Clairvoyance (and there’s a link to more pictures)
     
    Guy Named Sue likes this.

  15. Bazz Jass

    Bazz Jass Chairman of the Fingerboard Strat-Talk Supporter

    Nov 19, 2014
    Comfy Chair
    Look at the first post. There's a link
     
    Guy Named Sue likes this.

  16. Guy Named Sue

    Guy Named Sue Beer me up Scotty Strat-Talk Supporter

    Feb 11, 2015
    Sweden

  17. Guitar0621

    Guitar0621 Strat-Talk Member

    67
    May 24, 2017
    USA
    Oh yeah. I didn't see the other pics. It's a pretty good "fake". Tuners are repros. As Inra311 said, the spiderweb checking is not actually realistic. And there's no primer coat.

    The clay dots are colored right and have been aged but there's no "grain" in them that they usually show. The 12th fret dots appear to be "narrow" -- was that 65 or 64? Neck is a laminate board which means is likely Musikraft or maybe one of those precebsguitars.com strats?

    Cool looking guitar, though!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017

  18. Mipstoo

    Mipstoo Strat-Talker

    410
    Mar 18, 2013
    Rockingham Palace
    Don’t call it a fake just yet. The neck , a part from the repro tuners, doesn’t strike me as odd. It’s most likely Braz, dots are consistent with date. Decal is spot on. Musikraft doesn’t build veneer boards, nor does any other licensed company. If I look at the examples on precbsguitars.com they look more convincing than what is shown here, especially the body.
    The body raises the questions for me
     

  19. altar

    altar Strat-Talker

    131
    Oct 4, 2016
    USA
    I don't think the body is real. Also I don't care for the relic job, it looks cheesy and not natural
     

  20. Bazz Jass

    Bazz Jass Chairman of the Fingerboard Strat-Talk Supporter

    Nov 19, 2014
    Comfy Chair
    The decal is a little strange if you look closely. There's a ghosting around each letter of Fender.....

    Regardless, too much has been done on this guitar to deliberately mislead, for me to trust any of it as legit preCBS

    May be a great guitar in itself of course...
     
    johnnymg likes this.