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Strat identification

Discussion in 'Stratocaster Discussion Forum' started by micoconnell, Jan 3, 2017.

  1. Fendereedo

    Fendereedo Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    51
    May 7, 2014
    UK
    Just an idea I suppose. I just wondered iif the op could get a legal one through Tokai themselves, anyway it couldn't hurt to try. ;)
     
  2. stratman323

    stratman323 Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    56
    Apr 21, 2010
    London, UK
    It's worth a go I suppose. Tokai aren't usually a lot of help though. The problem is that we're still not sure which decal would be "correct".

    I found this with a Google search. I assume that posting this doesn't break ST rules, but if it does - mods please forgive me.

    http://www.croxguitars.com/TokaiGreco.htm
     
    Percy and Fendereedo like this.
  3. Fendereedo

    Fendereedo Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    51
    May 7, 2014
    UK
    I didn't actually consider what the correct decal would be :(. The link looks promising though! :thumb:
     
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  5. Yogi

    Yogi Most Honored Senior Member

    Age:
    29
    Jan 21, 2009
    Tuscaloosa, AL
    Those tuners with the deluxe logo on them are old gotoh vintage tuners, I have a set sitting in my parts drawer from a 80s MIJ Kramer.
     
  6. stratman323

    stratman323 Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    56
    Apr 21, 2010
    London, UK
    1980 Tokais had TOKAI stamped tuners. I think they changed to DELUXE around 1981/2, so that helps to date it as a later model. So it seems likely that it would originally have had the block decal or the Goldstar script decal.

    I assume quite a few MIJ guitars from that period used the Gotohs, I have an idea that Fernandes did. Does anyone know what the JVs had?
     
    Yogi likes this.
  7. micoconnell

    micoconnell Strat-Talk Member

    Age:
    30
    14
    Jan 3, 2017
    AU
    That's great that all the parts seem to be original. I don't remember the bridge saddles having any letter printed on them but I'll double check on the weekend.
     
  8. micoconnell

    micoconnell Strat-Talk Member

    Age:
    30
    14
    Jan 3, 2017
    AU
    I can see a bit of shading on the head but not enough to make out what it might be. It is under the stratocaster sticker. It's a bit frustrating not knowing the model. You are very knowledgeable with these guitars and I thank you for helping solve this mystery guitars history
     
  9. stratman323

    stratman323 Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    56
    Apr 21, 2010
    London, UK
    No problem at all. I love these guitars so looking at them isn't exactly hard work! And queries like yours help to keep my identification knowledge up to date.

    :cool:
     
  10. Finalprospec

    Finalprospec Strat-Talk Member

    74
    Dec 9, 2014
    U.K.
  11. micoconnell

    micoconnell Strat-Talk Member

    Age:
    30
    14
    Jan 3, 2017
    AU
    Fantastic. And I'm glad it's not the block decal. I think I'll try and get my hands on the correct decal and have it back for its original condition. The guitar is in suppers condition and it has the original case I'm pretty sure.
    What would be the market value of this model currently?
     
    Finalprospec likes this.
  12. stratman323

    stratman323 Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    56
    Apr 21, 2010
    London, UK
    How can you be so sure about which decal it had Gabe? What did I miss that has allowed you to narrow it down so specifically?

    And as for you quoting a link to the planetbotch website, I'm surprised at you! That awful site is riddled with blatant inaccuracies & big chunks of opinion stated as fact! And because there is no way of anyone challenging his inaccuracies, they continue to sit on the site & they get quoted as fact by others.....

    Planetbotch isn't generally well thought of here on ST, particularly amongst devotees of MIJ guitars. That page is a little better than some of his efforts, but it still contains errors. He states, about the TST-50 "The fingerboards on these have a pronounced vintage radius – more so than the Fender reissues of the ‘80s". This seems to be implying that both the AVRIs & the Fender Japan vintage styled guitars (which he insists on calling "re-issues" even though they were no such thing) had boards flatter than 7.25". And we both know that that isn't true. So where did that come from? o_O

    He also claims that the Kluson tuners Tokai used "were Kluson Deluxe copies, but they weren’t as good as the ones Fender used". Again - opinion stated as fact - and he's wrong. And the one guitar he shows us pics of has a replaced snot green scratchplate - would it have been too much bother to have sourced a pic of an all-original Goldstar with white plastic? There are loads of pics on the internet!

    He states "The thin polyester finishes were nicely applied, but they’d quickly break out into cracks if you didn’t keep the guitars at conducive temperatures." Really? Between the two of us we must have had over three dozen Goldstars pass through our hands, & I have never seen this phenomenon & I doubt if you have either - we would have discussed it if we had seen it.

    Finally, we get "A thinner finish does seem less intrusive when it comes to the tone and the ageing process of the wood though". One thing that I have learned in my time on ST is that wood is dead - it can't & won't "age" unless it decays. But Mr. Botch lies to prolong these old myths.

    Planetbotch? Planetinaccurateopinion more like it. And that's me being very polite. :rolleyes:
     
    Guitarmageddon likes this.
  13. Finalprospec

    Finalprospec Strat-Talk Member

    74
    Dec 9, 2014
    U.K.
    Hi Mike,i used the planet botch site because it had a decent photo of an 84 ST 50 decal and for NO other reason.I have found that this table from Toka De to be reasonably accurate for dating Tokais and thus styles of logos.According to the table and the features and specs of this guitar it is highly likely to be an 84.if it is an 83 then the block logo replacement is not commercially available and quite ugly,so the only available practical choice for the owner, is to apply a Goldie script logo,which I am strongly suggesting. http://www.tokaiguitar.de/content_images/SN1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  14. Finalprospec

    Finalprospec Strat-Talk Member

    74
    Dec 9, 2014
    U.K.
    Tokai mania.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  15. stratman323

    stratman323 Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    56
    Apr 21, 2010
    London, UK
    Oh I agree that it's most likely to be a Goldstar from 1984, at least partly because we know that so many more of these were made. But from going through all the various details we've seen, couldn't it just as easily be an '82 or '83? Or am I missing something?

    I agree that, if it was shown to be an '83, you wouldn't want to try to get one of the awful block TOKAI decals. But I'm just wondering if it could have been an '82 Springy?
     
  16. Finalprospec

    Finalprospec Strat-Talk Member

    74
    Dec 9, 2014
    U.K.
    Hi Mike ,my own, proven beyond any doubt, 84 L series Goldie`s serial number L113## is earlier in sequence than the L13178 of miconnel`s Goldie,therefore his guitar CANNOT be an 82 Springy and therefore MUST be an 84 or later Goldie.
     
    micoconnell likes this.
  17. Finalprospec

    Finalprospec Strat-Talk Member

    74
    Dec 9, 2014
    U.K.
  18. stratman323

    stratman323 Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    56
    Apr 21, 2010
    London, UK
    I've been thinking about this since you posted as I was very surprised. I have always understood that Goldstars can't be dated from their serial numbers, & that the L numbers were not applied in any kind of numerical sequence. So to hear that they were applied in sequence is a big surprise. I'm surprised you never mentioned this to me before!

    So I did some research & looked through the various L serial numbered Golstars that I have or used to have. There were 10, numbers ranging from two L09XXX to L30XXX, all script decal Goldstars. If you remember the natural ST60 I bought from you, which I think we both agreed was probably an early one, that was L14XXX.

    So I have had two script decal Goldstars, so clearly from 1984 onwards, with L09XXX numbers, yet the '83 for sale is L11XXX, significantly higher. So it doesn't look to me as though the numbers were used in any kind of sequential or logical order.

    Or am I missing something? This has baffled me.
     
    Guitarmageddon likes this.
  19. Finalprospec

    Finalprospec Strat-Talk Member

    74
    Dec 9, 2014
    U.K.
    Dating Goldstars from their serial numbers is not an exact science as there are anomalies,however I still find this sequential serial number table from Tokai de along with other supporting evidence,such as pickup type,logo,pickguard brass plate or lack of etc ,to be very useful in determining date of manufacture http://www.tokaiguitar.de/content_images/SN1.jpg.After 86 though, all bets are off as L series Goldies beyond L30000 or so lose their L and become 6 digits.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  20. stratman323

    stratman323 Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    56
    Apr 21, 2010
    London, UK
    I don't trust anything from Tokai.DE, as you know. But regardless of that, I think that I have shown with the ten examples above that you cannot date Goldstars from the L serial number, which is what is commonly believed & stated by most Tokai sources I have ever communicated with. Certainly, when I was on the Tokai Forum, anyone who asked was always told "You can't date an L serial number Tokai from the serial number as they were not applied sequentially". So to challenge that needs strong evidence. That page is not strong evidence.

    The page you have quoted is clearly not accurate or reliable & I dismiss it out of hand. It states that a 1982 would have a number up to L04XXX. In fact, the example that you quoted above was L11 - according to that page it should be a 1984. He simply cribbed a few details from the Registry, made several big assumptions & wrote that. It's wrong. He says it isn't 100% reliable. The truth is it isn't reliable at all.

    I stand by the conventional wisdom on this subject unless I am given compelling evidence that it's wrong.

    The other details on the guitar in this thread (pickup type, DELUXE tuners etc.) fit, as far as I can tell, a post 1981 or 82 Springy or Goldstar. I haven't seen anything to convince me that it must be a post 1984 Goldstar. The serial numbers are simply too random to be of any real help.
     

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