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How to harmonize in fourths? John scofield lesson

Discussion in 'Tab & Music Forum' started by spyglass, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. spyglass

    spyglass Strat-O-Master

    514
    Feb 6, 2011
    Philadelphia
    This is something I always wanted to learn and in this john scofield lesson he talks about harmonizing in fourths from the c lydian scale,I do understand the fourths of the scale but what chords is he playing here?
    part is at 1:14.

     

  2. nhsdpl

    nhsdpl Senior Stratmaster

    Apr 21, 2012
    West Australia
    Deleted.

    I effed it up :confused:
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017

  3. Rastus

    Rastus Senior Stratmaster

    Jan 1, 2014
    Australia
    Yo,

    He actually explains it really well IMO. But to elaborate a little, he's using the diatonic Major-scale, harmonizing in 4th's, but following those harmonized group-of-notes moving up the neck.

    Find your bass-note. Then harmonize in 4th's. And move this bass-note up the Major-scale ( up the neck from your bass-note, using the same string), whilst following the harmony notes from this pool of notes, that you're re-harmonizing in 4th's each step.

    You'll soon discover by yourself why you have to alter your fingering a little on some chords. This is the part that you must follow through yourself to learn. You can't be shown how to do it, you have to learn & discover whilst by playing-it-out. This also teaches you the notes on your fret-board. Only YOU can find-out for yourself.

    Cool post, he's a great player of our time, & teacher. I hope I've helped a little.

    Ciao,

    Rastus
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
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  4. fezz parka

    fezz parka The Wiggler of Sticks Strat-Talk Supporter

    Harmonize in 4ths.

    C Major:

    C-D-E-F-G-A-B (C Ionian)
    F-G-A-B-C-D-E (F lydian)

    Am

    A'B-C-D-E-F-G (A Aeolian)
    D-E-F-G-A-B-C (D Dorian)
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
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  5. Rastus

    Rastus Senior Stratmaster

    Jan 1, 2014
    Australia
    Yo,

    There's also another way to consider this movement in 4th's, & it's much easier to grasp, & is theoretically correct too...

    However, it moves away from Johns "Diatonic" approach, though is just as correct ( IMO ), but lends itself to more "out-side" sounds, even though it's far simpler to play.

    I will NOT explain for now, since I do not want to complicate matters, but it's very important to realize there is another, just as effective use of using 4th's.

    Cheers,

    Rastus
     
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  6. fezz parka

    fezz parka The Wiggler of Sticks Strat-Talk Supporter

    Tell us my friend. Any info is good info. :D
     
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  7. Rastus

    Rastus Senior Stratmaster

    Jan 1, 2014
    Australia
    LOL !

    I won't tease anyone here !!! And I will not confuse the OP in what I have to say...But I will make you "Think" a little, & hopefully you will discover the answer for yourself...

    The "clue" / answer lies in the simple grasping of the Wheel, & the cycle of 4th's & 5th's...

    I will give a more complete answer, have no doubt...But for now, I honestly believe that thinking a little about it for yourselves, will help you learn & understand, plus cement the fact in your mind forever.

    I'm not teasing here folks, please have a go. Rest assured that the answer is theoretically correct, & is right in front of you when you view the "Wheel".

    Cheers,

    Rastus
     
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  8. fezz parka

    fezz parka The Wiggler of Sticks Strat-Talk Supporter

    Well ... if you flatten the 7 in a C major scale....you get F major.

    C-D-E-F-G-A-B

    F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E
     
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  9. fezz parka

    fezz parka The Wiggler of Sticks Strat-Talk Supporter

    With the diatonic approach, you have an augmented fourth (F-B).

    C-D-E-F-G-A-B (C Ionian)
    F-G-A-B-C-D-E (F lydian)

    By flattening the 7 in the C major scale, you get F major. Perfect fourths.

    C-D-E-F-G-A-B
    F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E

    Thanks for making my brain work!
     
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  10. Rastus

    Rastus Senior Stratmaster

    Jan 1, 2014
    Australia
    Hello folks,

    It's probably easier for me to explain myself in point-form, so please accept this as the easiest way for me to put-this-across..

    * The "Wheel", when viewed from 12-o-clock, & then to the left, moves in "perfect 4th's". ( Perfect 4th's being fundamental in our approach here ).

    * We can now say, that the notes we find are, & in this order, C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G, & C once again.

    * Seeing that we've covered every possible note available to us in a logical manner, we can also say that we can use these notes, in this sequence, to make a chord...( Use as many as you like ! But better to stick with 4-5 notes to avoid "mud" ).

    * Since we now ( hopefully ) realize that all our musical notes above are intimately linked to one-another by this "perfect 4th" interval, we can apply this to our guitars.

    ***

    * Fret your guitar on the 1st & 2nd strings ( high E & B ) in the 1st fret, & now play all 6-strings. This is also a 4th's chord. I'll call it a "perfect 4th's chord". John's chord is a "Diatonic 4th's chord".

    * Using this new "chord shape", you may also realize that it likely sounds "better" when say using only 4-strings to sound-it-out. So take your pick ! ( Possibly strings 1-4 ring the clearest ).

    * Once you've decided on your preferred voicing, take heed to the name of the bass note, as this will be your anchor / ID note.

    * Now use this chord shape starting from the root-note C, & maintain this same shape whilst following the notes from the C-Major ( diatonic ) scale.

    * You will still end up with the same result musically, as we've already proved our 4th's inter-relationship, but our "new" chords are arguably more dramatic sounding, possibly even more colorful, & yet silly-simple to execute.

    ***
    * These relationships also lend themselves as proofs, to when you hear the spoken words, " There's no such thing as a wrong note " !!!

    I hope this helps, & I'll re-explain again should it be difficult to follow...

    Most importantly however, let your ears decide !!!


    Cheers,

    Rastus
     

  11. Rastus

    Rastus Senior Stratmaster

    Jan 1, 2014
    Australia


    Hello folks,

    I've recorded John's "Diatonic"-4th's chords, followed by the "Perfect"-4th's chords, (with a short 3-second break in-between).

    I also used John's string selection & voicing, that being strings 2-5 for both comparisons.

    What did I find ?....

    IMO, Johns "Diatonic" selection has much more tension, & resolution. It breathes much better. And the C-Major scale works perfectly over every chord.

    By comparison, the "Perfect" selection is more static, & predictable. The C-Major scale works too, but can feel miss-placed, & you may need to find alternate "resting" notes to find your resolution.

    Interestingly, only the I,IV, & V chords differ in voicing between the two versions, the others are identical. - ( I'll double check this ).

    Please play the C-Major scale ( or other if you find something more agreeable ) over the above example, & draw your own conclusions... It's all subjective, but there is more room for discussion too. We'll go there if you like.

    What did you find when playing over the example ????

    Discuss !!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017

  12. Robins

    Robins Dr. von Loudster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Dec 22, 2010
    Germany
    I would like to call for Annekei but I guess I 4th-ed her too much on this one:)


    Speaking about sounding more predictable-it really sounds more machinery using the "Perfect" 4th.
    I always do those stuff by ear just because I don´t have any knowledge of those harmony stuff at all.
    I guess I have to learn but I love keeping things spontaneous and out of the box.
    But often it happens I don´t land on my feet but hitting my head against that Rock´n´Roll wall instead.
    That´s the hard way - I know.

    All the best,
    Robin
     
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  13. spyglass

    spyglass Strat-O-Master

    514
    Feb 6, 2011
    Philadelphia
    Thanks everyone for the reply's I get that your stacking fourths to form a chord from the scale and did find this video which really did help me figure out some chords based of the c maj scale,Good stuff.

     

  14. amstratnut

    amstratnut Peace thru Music. Strat-Talk Supporter

    Dec 1, 2009
    My house.
    My method has to do with finding diatonic 4ths stacked up that sound good over a diatonic bass note.

    I use em a lot when trying to sound modern jazzy.

    For example a C major variant would look like this.

    E A D G This I believe is a C major 6/9

    Another variant looks like this

    E A D G B I believe this is a C major 6/9 as well but played at the 7th fret. Its also an E m11.

    Im on my phone with no guitar. I hope I dont have to come back and correct all this stuff. :)

    Note that the bass note is left off. You can add it but for comping purposes I dont.
     
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