I hope Fender doesn't start doing this.

Discussion in 'Sidewinders Bar & Grille' started by Danny D, Sep 24, 2021.

  1. Danny D

    Danny D Strat-O-Master

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  2. simoncroft

    simoncroft Still playing. Still learning! Silver Member

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    To be honest with you, Danny, I don't really have a problem. When I got lucky and sold two old ex-BBC amps on YT for about £4,000, I bought the nicest Gibson 335 I could afford. I bought it to own and play, but I can't help noticing its value has increased vastly more than the interest I've earned anywhere else in the same period. Is owning a share of a collectable guitar really any worse than owning a share of a race horse?

    OK, I get the argument that guitars are to be played, not collected and traded like stock. On the other hand, I doubt if Joe Bonamassa, Slash or Eric Clapton will be inviting me round to play their stash of rare guitars, so those instruments are as lost to me as if they were in bank vaults.

    Is it a sure-fire investment? Er... no. Definitely not.
     
  3. Danny D

    Danny D Strat-O-Master

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    I agree with you. This is the paragraph that got to me- A $60,000 valuation attached to a modern guitar—even a prototype—also seems like the product of a frothy market, especially since owners don’t get to take it home. “There is no way an investor is going to make money on this,” said Baxter Clement, owner of Casino Guitars, a famed music store in Southern Pines, N.C. “With that money I can buy a real vintage guitar.”
     
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  4. CB91710

    CB91710 No GAS shortage here Double Platinum Supporting Member

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    Honestly... I don't see Gibson *really* doing it either.
    It's marketing... and Gibson trying to cash in on some of the huge prices that vintage gear is selling for.
    But I honestly don't think there's going to be a lot of people interested in a "time share" deal... or a deal where the guitar is like a share in the commodities market.
    I'm assuming that Gibson ran this idea past the FTC ;)
     
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  5. Danny D

    Danny D Strat-O-Master

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    I never even thought of the FTC angle.
     
  6. dirocyn

    dirocyn Most Honored Senior Member

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    The whole concept seems like a scam to me. Just a way for the "brokerage company" to get a nice guitar while other people pay for it. I bet they charge for safekeeping & maintenance, too.
     
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  7. Baelzebub

    Baelzebub Dr. Stratster

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    I think the commodities analogy is closer than the time share since you never even get to hold the item. But this is all the rage in the smoke and mirrors world of Wall St. NFT's. Non-fungible Tokens.

    It's being done with all sorts of things...artworks, original writings, it's more or less unlimited. I'd think responsibility would fall more on the SEC than the FTC.

    It all smells about as sound as derivatives. (Remember how those turned out in 2008?)

    Just as complex in concept to understand the workings, nothing really to represent your interest but a piece of paper someone says is worth something, (which actually resembles fiat currencies, come to think of it), and largely unregulated.

    Caveat Emptor. You can pick any alphabet agency you like. None of them are looking out for you.
     
  8. Danny D

    Danny D Strat-O-Master

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    A thoughtful post. While reading it I thought of back when I used an iMac. There was a period where I'd buy a tune and it actually existed on my hard drive. It felt like mine. Suddenly the rules changed and my songs existed on the cloud and I had to pay Apple a storage fee. That iMac developed problems and sits in my closet now so it's a moot point.
     
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  9. stevierayfan91

    stevierayfan91 DEEPLY SHY.

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    Hi , @Danny D
    I tend to prefer that just me is who uses my guitar.

    Did the article also give you impression that those guitars would be owned cumulatively? like shifted around ?
     
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  10. Danny D

    Danny D Strat-O-Master

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    I'm not sure really. This quote is puzzling> Ownership of an EDS-1275 doubleneck model approved by Slash, of the band Guns N’ Roses, was chopped into 13,000 parts and sold for $5 apiece to 562 investors in just two hours.

    In my first overly quick read, I took that quote to mean the guitar itself was chopped in the 13,000 parts and investors got to keep a tiny piece of it. I absolutely should never read anything without glasses.
     
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  11. Baelzebub

    Baelzebub Dr. Stratster

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    Yes...Intellectual Property has taken some weird twists. The idea that you don't own the things you buy...you just "lease" them after a fashion. Or rather you don't buy them, just the right, (controlled by someone else) to use them.

    Imagine if they did that with lawn mowers. You'd get sued for mowing your neighbor's lawn, or letting them use your mower.

    But we're getting more and more into the territory of "etherware". Where mere ideas or concepts can be owned. Even parts of the human genome. The implications are very fertile ground for thought experiments.
     
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  12. Baelzebub

    Baelzebub Dr. Stratster

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    it works like derivatives did in the mortgage market.

    There, a bank would purchase a bundle of mortgages, (more accurately the rights to collect the payments on them). Then they assigned a value to that bundle and divided it into parts...say the assigned value was 100k, they would divide that into 100 shares valued at $1000 each and sell those to investors.

    The bank would charge a fee for servicing the loans and distributing the payments among the shareholders.

    Here they're doing the same thing with the guitar. All you're really getting is a piece of paper and bragging rights. You'll never see the guitar.

    Interestingly, when the SHTF in the mortgage market and the banks would try to foreclose on the underlying properties, it was more often than not the case that the banks had no idea what the actual location was of the notes representing the mortgage obligations. They'd been traded so much, and the banks used a scheme for avoiding the fees for recording all the changes in ownership that they notes got lost in the process.

    It presented a few problems for them until they bought off the system to change the rules for them.

    But in this instance....whose to say the guitar even exists or where it is? I don't see anything in these NFT schemes that guarantees that the underlying value in the securities being sold is maintained anywhere certain.
     
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  13. Baelzebub

    Baelzebub Dr. Stratster

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    if it quacks like a duck.....
     
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  14. Baelzebub

    Baelzebub Dr. Stratster

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    It's funny you thought mention Joe BUYNOWmassa. He's heavily on board with this whole NFT thing...he did it with one of his guitars and an original song recently.

    So that should tell you something about them. That guy will sell ANYTHING!
     
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  15. Danny D

    Danny D Strat-O-Master

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    When I read your posts I see them coming out of the mouth of Frank and I truly appreciate it.
     
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  16. Danny D

    Danny D Strat-O-Master

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    Thank you for clearly explaining 2008 and the crazy article that I posted. It seems those with the means to work the system will most certainly do it.
     
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  17. Danny D

    Danny D Strat-O-Master

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    Whenever I learn a new vocabulary word or acronym I consider myself smarter than the day before. Thank you for mentioning NFTs
     
  18. Danny D

    Danny D Strat-O-Master

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    C
    I'd like to put my Charlie Brown shirt on and say, "Good Grief."
     
  19. simoncroft

    simoncroft Still playing. Still learning! Silver Member

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    I had a modest private pension fund. To my horror, I saw its value had fallen £10,000 in a year. I phoned my 'financial adviser' (or whatever the silly little div was called). I said: "If I saw that happening to my investments, I'd cash it out immediately. I'd rather keep it in a bank, or even under the bed in cash than see that happen."

    His response: "That's not really what fund managers do."

    My response: "Then I don't want that lazy brains dealing with my money, because they don't actually get to lose a penny being useless, and neither do you."

    I no longer have a private pension; I put the money in bricks and mortar. Unless I can hold something in my hands, or hold the title deeds to it, it's all too theoretical for me. Plus, when all these fund managers, advisers and the like take a cut, there's nothing left for the individual investor. I've made more money trading bass guitars than those fleas have ever made me. (Rickenbacker and Alembics were my favourites, but they're worth so much money now, I'm not a player anymore. It proves my though, I think.)

    Seriously, if you deal in things you truly understand, and stay alert to changes in the market, you can usually make a decent profit.
     
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  20. Baelzebub

    Baelzebub Dr. Stratster

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    Wow...that's high praise indeed!...Unless it's just the pic ....but many thanks either way.

    The inscription on the top of that photo on canvas (which hangs on the wall to my right at the desk is cut off in the avatar. It says:

    "Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."

    I guess by that definition what Gibson and BUYNOWmassa are doing it "art"?
     
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