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Is this legal? Custom Shop Neck Plate & COA

Discussion in 'Stratocaster Discussion Forum' started by judge70, Jan 19, 2016.

  1. Lost Sailor

    Lost Sailor Strat-O-Master

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    I would think any other guitar than the original would not authenic therefore
    if not fake then not a legitimate custom shop.....(you really had to ask?)
     
  2. Guy Named Sue

    Guy Named Sue Counting headlice on the highway Strat-Talk Supporter

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    Of course and I agree on that but you specifically said

    "If you buy a Tele with a SN of "CZ518735" you should know it is a fake."

    So because I'm curios I asked why that is so obvious?

    Say for example the person who buys this slaps the plate on a Telecaster and puts it in a hardcase with the certificate.

    I bet you that at least 3 out 5 people would get fooled and if it was priced just right enough one fool would buy that.

    Am I wrong? How would that fool know right of the bat that the guitar is fake based on your comment?
     
  3. KCStratman

    KCStratman Senior Stratmaster

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    As Tealsixtysix says, redhouse is one of the largest regular dealers of strat and tele parted out guitars on ebay along with stratosphere and a couple others. Fender CS CoAs show up on ebay regularly and package deals of a CS neck, neck plate, and CoA are not uncommon. It is not in any way fraudulent for anyone to sell any part of any guitar for any reason unless it is (stolen), serial numbered neck plates and CoAs included. The only fraudulent related act would be to use those items to represent a non-original CS guitar as a legitimate one. Many CS guitars have been disassembled over the years for various reasons and the parts get rebuilt into other guitars, as they should as they are guitar parts that are only useful if assembled into a guitar. This is another good time to remind yourself that "all strats and teles are "partscasters" and are simply a sum of those parts". Another good reason not to let Fender Co. (whoever the owners are these days, I couldn't care less since it is not Leo Fender anymore) sell you a $900 guitar for $4500 because it has a neck plate stamped CS and a fancy paper certificate, neither of which contribute one iota to it as a musical instrument.
    Joel, unfortunately, if you put that neck plate on a decent tele in the right case with that CoA probably 8 out of 10 guitar stores let alone individuals would accept it as a legitimate CS on trade unless they pulled the neck to check for markings, with a CS decal off the internet which are a dime a dozen probably 100% would accept it. I would never buy a Fender CS instrument without pulling the neck and checking all the markings because all the external cosmetics are so easy to reproduce.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2016
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  4. John C

    John C Most Honored Senior Member

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    No, you're not wrong. Those of us who have seen this thread would know it's an obvious fake because we've now seen the certificate/neck plate set for sale. But some guy or gal off the street would think it's legit because the certificate matched the neck plate - unless they were to contact Fender and find out the color and/or fingerboard was wrong (that is assuming the person who buys the cert/plate doesn't contact Fender themselves and copy the correct specs exactly).
     
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  5. adiabatic

    adiabatic Senior Stratmaster

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    An RFID tag embedded in a random spot of the body's glue up would be a nice improvement for identification of higher-end models. Jeez... even my pets have one.
     
  6. Neil.C

    Neil.C Most Honored Senior Member

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    Not the same with Rolexes as people often buy old boxes to go with watches they own to make up a full set as in the past (and even now) people would just throw them away.

    Hang tags mean nothing, it is the punched papers you get with Rolexes which can help confer originality. Also they are rather more complex than the simple Fender Custom shop certificate and would be much harder to replicate.

    I would also say that second hand Rolex buyers would be more savvy as it is much easier to fake a couple of bits of wood with some strings than a mechanical watch.
     
  7. stratman323

    stratman323 Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

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    This is true. But surely there is only one possible reason why anyone would buy a CS certificate & neckplate? To make a fake CS guitar. What other possible reason could there be?
     
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  8. henderman

    henderman Most Honored Senior Member Strat-Talk Supporter

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    I would like to explain why I disagree, respectfully. I know you know a thing or two about the Rolex product, but I know a man who managed a Rolex dealer for decades.

    Here in the USA, a Rolex with box and papers command more money in the used market, to uninformed buyers. It's dumb IMO, but perception rules. ("Certified")

    I can assure you counterfeiting a Rolex is EZPZ. He explained to me how simple it is. It takes much more time and effort to make a fake Fender and not get anywhere the same return.

    Get a stainless Submariner as beat and cheap as you can.

    Machine a head from 18K gold to put the parts in. It is easy because the shape is simple, any qualified machinist can do it in a couple of hours.

    Buy an Italian counterfeit bracelet and you are almost done, he told me he himself can not identify the bracelets they are so good. Seals gaskets and crystals are available if the ones you already have need replacing. You'll need to buy an 18K gold crown.

    You now turned a junker into a $30,000 watch that someone will buy with a box and papers for a good discount off the MSRP.

    All they need now is the "story" as to why a new in box watch is for sale and discounted even though a dealer will not sell one that cheap.

    That is even easier to do when someone wants a Rolex and will not pay full price from a dealer.
     
  9. tealsixtysix

    tealsixtysix Senior Stratmaster

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    There is (at least) one large US-based business that does this more or less openly... selling "upgraded" Rolexes for what seem to the inexpert like great prices. A lot of what they sell seem to be old '60s models re-dressed to look like blingy newer ones. A business that specializes in helping buyers look rich (for some value of looking "rich") for light money will always find customers.

    Of course, the first time you send it off to Rolex for a tune-up, you'll be very surprised by the bill they send you to replace the "counterfeit" parts.
     
  10. echoes71

    echoes71 Senior Stratmaster

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    All what paperwork? All you get is a cert when you buy them new, thats it, and some older ones didnt even have those.
     
  11. henderman

    henderman Most Honored Senior Member Strat-Talk Supporter

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    Rolex watches have interchangable parts much like a Strat, and yes many qualified watchmakers can refurbish and upgrade them to look like a newer model or whatnot. The faceplates for instance are easily changed, like a loaded pickguard It is not illegal and to an educated buyer, a good way to get what you want to wear for less.

    I am talking about flat out counterfeiting, not non factory refurbishing and upgrading.

    You are correct about the sending it in for service, Rolex does everything they can to protect their brand, they will not service it unless you buy authorized parts for it. They will not return the non factory parts either.

    The store manager I know told me you can get a different faceplate, for a charge, when you get your watch serviced from Rolex, also. As long as it was available that way when it was new, and they do not return the original.
     
  12. rmendozajr

    rmendozajr Strat-Talker

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    See this goes back to things like autographs on E Bay. I mean there have been so many times I'd like to buy an autograph of my favorite guitarist that comes with a certificate of authenticity but ultimately...how do you truly know it is authentic unless you receive it directly from the artist . And the prices for these "authentic" pieces are so high. I'm not saying the seller is being honest but still...why sell an authentic name plate for a specific guitar if you don't get the original guitar it was intended for? Seems strange to me IMO.
     
  13. Neil.C

    Neil.C Most Honored Senior Member

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    This is true.

    Actually it is quite a complex shape and I am sure a Rolex expert/enthusiast could spot a copied case but let's carry on.

    OK.

    BTW I am going to be talking in sterling henceforth.

    Well you have to buy your "junker" steel Sub first and I can't see you getting anything cheaper than £3000 if it has issues/damage.

    The second hand price of a steel Sub here is £5000.

    Its equivalent in 18k is £11,000.

    Sounds a good criminal proposition so far, however...

    You have to buy a large block of 18k gold to be machined into a fake case.

    You also have to buy a fake 18K "Italian" bracelet which comes in about £4000.

    So now when we add up the costs:

    "junker" Sub £3000
    Bracelet £4000
    18k gold for the case is 30g so around £750. Add on the cost of the machinist to make a "perfect" facsimile of the case ring, case back and bezel. Let's just say £250.
    We are into it for £8000 that's without the cost of the Rolex box and papers from an 18k Sub plus of course you will need an 18k gold crown.

    It's a lot of expense and outlay (and the chance off getting caught) to try and make a fake gold Submariner for less than £3000 profit.

    Added to that a Rolex expert could no doubt tell it was a fake. Like Strats, when you have seen so many over the years you can tell at a glance, and if not opening the back and looking at the stamped markings on the caseback and the top and bottom lugs would no doubt give the game away.

    You are much better off just screwing a metal plate on a Strat. ;)
     
  14. henderman

    henderman Most Honored Senior Member Strat-Talk Supporter

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    Hello, again- It is true that the price of gold going gonzo since 2004 when, I obtained this info, and yes that has changed the profit formula. In 2004, you could buy a stainless Datejust with a stretched to the moon bracelet for $1000. Many, all day. Those models were about $16,000 for an 18K version,new.

    Back in 2004 an Italian bracelet was $900 for an 18K copy. And I forgot, you will need to buy a different faceplate.

    Do the math again now and see if it is clear now what I stated earlier.

    The shape of Rolex case IS one of the simplest there is, a qualified machinist can make one right now. You are a watch guy, look at many others and you will see the Rolex shape is as simple as it could be.

    The people doing this are all trained watchmakers whom most of have worked for Rolex.They know more than both of us and I am sure they have the tools to put the marks in the right place.

    It is way easier than building a Strat and screwing a neckplate on it.

    You are probably just scared, when you actually see how easy it is to reproduce one.
     
  15. Neil.C

    Neil.C Most Honored Senior Member

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    I'm not scared, just not interested in faking Watches.

    I know a few people from Rolex UK and also a lot of knowledgeable watch people (of which I like to include myself) and believe me they could tell a real case from a fake one.

    As I said before, just getting the stampings of the serial number and reference number inside the upper and lower lugs plus the information stamped on the inner caseback to look correct is something I have never seen managed before.

    Looking at the stuff through a loupe (which is what we all do) will soon show the difference between factory and fake stampings.

    The marks are put on at the factory, nowhere else.

    People who want something for nothing, are I guess, taken in by fake Rolexes every day in a similar way to people who appear on this forum to show off their new US Standard Strat of which the only genuine piece is the neck.

    Now that does happen a lot!
     
  16. henderman

    henderman Most Honored Senior Member Strat-Talk Supporter

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    I have no interest in faking watches either, I am mesmerized by the mechanical movements and craftsmanship and appalled by liars, cheats and thieves.

    I'm only pointing out that this process I shared came from the store manager of a Rolex dealer for 25 years. I have a friend who runs a $379,000 CNC machine 6 days a week that can scan a watch head and I could pick it up tomorrow. It will be within a 1/4 of a thosandth of an inch. It is that easy.

    You know more than I thought, and I know you are still not on board, but with access to information and
    the ability of machines today, in conjunction with ex-Rolex employees inside knowledge, it is that easy, IMO. The thing is we are only talking about reproducing a case head and a coverback.
    It would take a team of experts like yourself and the people you know to take the thing apart and decipher, and I still think you would not have absolute confidence. I have a very nice loupe, but no idea what to look for!

    If you are talking about walking into a Rolex dealership and unscrewing the back, which the local dealer here offers, as a service, I believe it will pass that test easy.

    Over here in the USA, older generation solid 18K Datejust models that are the perfect storm for what he outlined, are still plentiful, and go for serious money. Even as much as gold has gone up it would still a profitable venture.

    I was wrong when I used the Submariner as the example, although same process, they do cost more than a standard Datejust and would be less profitable.

    I have done simple machining and can produce things
    within 1/1000" with machines from the late 1800's - So I know what a Rolex Dealership Manager told me is being done somewhere all day long.

    It is only a matter of if you are in front of one of those bobo units or not. That is all I'm trying to share.
     
  17. Neil.C

    Neil.C Most Honored Senior Member

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    Well, thank gawd you are not in the counterfeit business!:thumb:
     
  18. Danmax

    Danmax New Member!

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    I have posted this before, just not on this forum. What I started doing is recording every part I buy & I keep a file on every Fender or Gibson guitar I have. It also includes all work I've had done or work I've done to it. This isn't going to stop people from getting legit material & turning another guitar into a cash cow but creating paperwork does tend to follow the piece around.
    With websites like "Guitar Dater Project", it should probably be a good idea if they add a field that shows if the serial number your looking up is actually already recorded & linked to a person or business. It could remain private but just showing that the serial number is recorded, it just might slow down all this crap. Even if they offered a link that would show the color of the guitar would help. I understand that the biggest problem would be who's gonna pay for the website since the data would get larger as time goes on but there's all kinds of websites that operate by user donations. It's just a thought. Back to me, like I say, I keep a record of what I do to each guitar since unless I sold it on a website that reaches a lot of people all over the country, it would probably remain localized which would make it that much easier to match up to a serial number...
     
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