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Music Theory Q and A Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Tab & Music Forum' started by davidKOS, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. davidKOS

    davidKOS Retired Performer Strat-Talk Supporter

    May 28, 2012
    California
    Of course this is in reference to those odd scales we were discussing.

    Chords and odd scales....mmmm.....interesting topic

    When I was at Klez camp in the early 1980's, I took classes on Klezmer theory/arranging from Hankus Netsky and Pete Sokolow (Klezmer legends in the revival).

    Of course this includes study of all the other musics that Klezmer drew upon - Romanian, Greek, Turkish, Russian, Polish, and numerous other styles even touching on Middle Eastern and Central Asian music.

    So one day we were discussing chords and scales, in the context of why the musical style changed over the years, sort of "blaming" the accordion and piano players for adding complex chords because they can - and here's what those guys said.

    There are complex chords that can be used with these scales - the older style used fewer simple chords - and "when in doubt, think drone".

    So even though any of these scales can be harmonized on each scale tone, in most practice, they are not. Only certain chords are used.

    Let's look at a Klezmer scale and see what I mean.

    [​IMG]

    The first scale, "Freygish" could be harmonized like this, following the typical Western musician's approach.

    D7 EbM7 F#dim7 GmMaj7 Am7b5 BbM7 Cm7

    However, the chords used in most Klezmer tunes in that mode are harmonized with D, Gm and Cm, the functional "I IV V" - but in this case it's I, iv, and bvii.

    You can find bands from the 50's and 60's with Chordovox accordions that used those dim7 and other chords - but the most authentic Klezmer uses the basic triadic harmony, with rare use of dom7th chords in certain situations, like a modulation to major or relative minor.

    Playing Greek music had much the same situation.

    So just because these scales can be harmonized like it was Mahavishnu Orchestra (which I loved) that does not mean the original cultures would do so.
     
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  2. davidKOS

    davidKOS Retired Performer Strat-Talk Supporter

    May 28, 2012
    California
    That's a classic!

    Mohammed Abdul Wahab was an innovator, though.

    Since we are guitar players, how about some Omar Khorshid?



    Yeah, I agree about makam and needing an oud or buzuk.
     
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  3. Omar

    Omar Most Inquisitive Junior Member Strat-Talk Supporter

    691
    Aug 9, 2017
    Marbella, Spain
    Mohammed Abdulwahab was a legend. The song “Qare’at Al Finjan” was composed by Mohammed Al Mouji (Mougy) also a renowned composer.

    Omar Khorshid was the best guitar player in Middle East.

    How easy is it learning Oud compared to guitar? I’m thinking of buying an Oud as I’m traveling this weekend to Saudi Arabia.
     
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  4. T Guitar Floyd

    T Guitar Floyd Senior Stratmaster

    Oct 27, 2014
    Arizona
    Wow! That was interesting! One of my students has been working on (and showing me) some Middle Eastern scales and we've been looking for songs and material. That was great to check out some of the other Omar Khorshid videos . . . he plays a couple of Strats! Very cool!

    I had been listening to Chris Rea's "Nothing to Fear" a few years ago and just recently discovered that it uses one of those scales. Another example is the James Bond Theme.
    One of the great things about playing music is that one can always find something new to learn! :)
     
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  5. davidKOS

    davidKOS Retired Performer Strat-Talk Supporter

    May 28, 2012
    California
    Sorry I confused the composers!

    Oud is not that hard if you play guitar - very few "chords", a different pick, and of course fretless.

    Where do you live? Can you find an oud teacher there?

    Anyway good luck finding a nice oud.
     

  6. Omar

    Omar Most Inquisitive Junior Member Strat-Talk Supporter

    691
    Aug 9, 2017
    Marbella, Spain
    I live in Spain. I don’t have enough time to spend with a teacher, I wish I had time though :( thanks David :)
     
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  7. davidKOS

    davidKOS Retired Performer Strat-Talk Supporter

    May 28, 2012
    California
    You could also get an oud in Morocco.
     
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  8. Duotone

    Duotone Senior Stratmaster

    Feb 12, 2016
    Norway
    Yes,

    The Chords are simple,but powerful and let melody and rhythm do most of the magic!

    I guess one of the benefits is that you get the flexibility to alter between scales, on that same set of simple chords.

    Don't we find this aproach in most of the shred extravaganca that utillises modes (Steve Vai etc.) ?
     
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  9. Omar

    Omar Most Inquisitive Junior Member Strat-Talk Supporter

    691
    Aug 9, 2017
    Marbella, Spain
    My dreams of having an Oud or a Tele have been destroyed... I just got a traffic fine of 500 euros :(
     

  10. Mansonienne

    Mansonienne Stratocrastinator Extraordinaire Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    53
    Dec 2, 2015
    Paris suburbs, France
    ouch!!!!!!:(:(
     
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  11. Dadocaster

    Dadocaster Most Honored Senior Member Strat-Talk Supporter

    Hey, Oud, don't take it bad.
     
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  12. Thrup'ny Bit

    Thrup'ny Bit Certified Curmudgeon Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    58
    May 21, 2010
    In my own little world
    Ouch. Time to sell the car ... :p
     
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  13. Omar

    Omar Most Inquisitive Junior Member Strat-Talk Supporter

    691
    Aug 9, 2017
    Marbella, Spain
    Yeah, ouch :(

    I hope I manage to reduce it to 250.
     

  14. davidKOS

    davidKOS Retired Performer Strat-Talk Supporter

    May 28, 2012
    California
    Well i am sorry!
     
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  15. davidKOS

    davidKOS Retired Performer Strat-Talk Supporter

    May 28, 2012
    California
    Well, yes and no, as the basic chords can change with each scale - but there are plenty traditional tunes that do indeed "modulate" though scales or modes of scales.
     

  16. simoncroft

    simoncroft Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    61
    May 30, 2013
    SE England
    Thank you again for this. My time is a little divided at the moment, but I am reading Kent Kennan's book. I'm sensing this may take me some time to understand, even at the most basic level, but what did I expect? :)
     
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  17. davidKOS

    davidKOS Retired Performer Strat-Talk Supporter

    May 28, 2012
    California
    Just let it sink in slowly!
     
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