Music Theory Q and A Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Tab & Music Forum' started by davidKOS, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. MrNeutron

    MrNeutron Strat-Talker

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    Is that French for "Well, there goes the neighborhood....."?
     
  2. dogletnoir

    dogletnoir V----V

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    Nope.
    More like, "That's fine... as long as it lasts."
     
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  3. davidKOS

    davidKOS not posting these days

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    Yup, more or less....I heard it as " I hope it lasts".

    Probably with a good bit of French worldliness.
     
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  4. dogletnoir

    dogletnoir V----V

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    Napoleon's mother was Corsican, iirc. Corse d'abord, et Français aprés... :)
    From wikipedia:
    Corsica, a mountainous Mediterranean island, presents a mix of stylish coastal towns, dense forest and craggy peaks (Monte Cinto is the highest).
    Nearly half the island falls within a park whose hiking trails include the challenging GR 20. Its beaches range from busy Pietracorbara to remote
    Saleccia and Rondinara. It's been part of France since 1768, but retains a distinct Italian culture.
    "I hope it lasts..." would be a perfect translation. i was going more for effect, LOL.
     
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  5. davidKOS

    davidKOS not posting these days

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    Being from another French settled place, New Orleans, I heard it that way. It also jives with the translation program, but that's the best source either.

    But I'm Sicilian-German-Sardinian-Genovese American. What do I know?
     
  6. dogletnoir

    dogletnoir V----V

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    Mais oui... and Corsica and Sicily have much in common, so you know plenty about
    a certain attitude (which is also common to Texans and Brooklynites).
    There's a place identity which runs deeper than the national one, because they existed
    as a thing apart before they became part of a larger amalgamation.
    :)
     
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  7. Omar

    Omar ✪✪ Miserable Old Curmudgeon ✪✪

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    Thanks a lot!
     
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  8. dogletnoir

    dogletnoir V----V

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    i'm just going to leave this here for future reference:
    Screenshot 2020-03-09 08.31.41.png
    It is the 'key' to unlocking so much of functional harmony.
    Study it, figure out the various patterns it contains...
    and you will travel far along the path of musical righteousness.
    :D

    First step:
    Look at the circle of 5ths... starting from the key of C at the top we move clockwise,
    upwards by the interval of a perfect 5th each time, and each key adds one more accidental,
    which would be a sharp (#)...

    C (no sharps), then G (one sharp, which occurs on the 7th scale degree), so
    G A B C D E F# and then back to G, the octave.

    The D Major scale would be the next in line, and we retain the F# from the previous key,
    and add one more to the 7th scale degree of our new key:
    D E F#G A B C# D.

    In A major we would carry over both sharps from the previous key, and add one more on the 7th degree, so we now have:
    A B C# D E F# G# A

    The Major scale pattern is always the same, with half steps occurring between steps 3 and 4 and between 7 and 8.

    If we look at the diagram again, and move counterclockwise, we are still ascending
    (this is the tricky part visually and conceptually), but by intervals of 4ths now,
    and each click in that counterclockwise direction adds one flat (b).

    C (no flats, the only 'natural' major key), then F (one flat):
    F G A Bb C D E F.
    For the next key, we keep the Bb (obviously, since it's the root or 'tonic' of our new key, LOL),
    and add one more flat to arrive at:
    Bb C D Eb F G A Bb

    The next counterclockwise key is Eb Major, and guess what we're going to do?
    That's right, we'll carry over our previous flats, and add another one:
    Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb

    Next key: Ab Major:
    Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab

    Are you starting to see the pattern?
    Each new clockwise key moves to the 5th, keeps any previous sharps and adds a sharp to the new key's 7th scale degree.
    Each new counterclockwise key moves to the 4th, keeps any previous flats, and adds a flat to the new 4th scale degree.
    At the bottom of the circle is F#, which is also enharmonic Gb (in equal temperament, of course, LOL again).

    "Ahh, but if I'm counting backwards, aren't I going down 5 steps, not 4?", i hear you saying.

    Yes, in fact you are... welcome to the world of inversions.

    A lot of basic music theory is actually just simple math.
    Any given interval plus its inversion gives a sum of 9.
    So up 5 steps will give you the same pitch name as down 4.
    Conversely, up 4 steps will give you the same pitch name as down 5.
    And up 6 will give you the same pitch name as down 3.
    Try it:
    C D E F G A B C...
    move up 6 steps starting from C, and you will arrive at A.
    Count back 3 steps from C, and you get back to... wait for it... A again.
    Add 6 + 3, and the sum is... 9.
    9 is our magic number when it comes to inversions.


    Stay tuned... next week we'll enter the 'Inner Circle'...
    but we've already received the 'key' to the door.

    This discussion will now continue here:
    https://www.strat-talk.com/threads/emcs-functional-harmony-thread.536064/
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
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  9. davidKOS

    davidKOS not posting these days

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    Just a bump to remind everyone about this theory thread. :)
     
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  10. tukoztukoz

    tukoztukoz Strat-O-Master

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    Why do we say « harmonic minor » in english, instead of «minor harmonic», like in french « mineur harmonique » ?

    7 notes scales are made of two tetrachords, which helps to remember them easily.

    A diminished whole tone scale is made of a diminished tetra + a whole tone tetra (lydian), and we don’t call it a whole tone diminished scale. It starts with the first tetrachord to name it.

    A harmonic minor scale starts with a minor tetrachord followed by a harmonic tetrachord. So why ?

    « A black strat » or « une strat noire »?
     
  11. davidKOS

    davidKOS not posting these days

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    Why are those things called what they are in English?

    Honestly I am not sure why the terms are inverted from French other than linguistics.

    As for the "harmonic minor scale starts with a minor tetrachord followed by a harmonic tetrachord. So why ?"

    Why is it called harmonic minor?

    To distinguish it from the other types of minor scales that also begin with a minor tetrachord, such as natural and melodic minor, which all have varying upper tetrachords.
     
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  12. Cerb

    Cerb Anti conformist reformist

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    I much prefer the English way of speaking about music, it's simpler and more adapted for every day language I think.

    You say sharp and flatm, i Sedish we add "iss" and "ess" after the note so D sharp would be called Diss and D flat would be Dess etc.

    If I'd do a direct translation and tell someone to play a 9th above they probably wouldn't understand, I'd have to call it a "Nona", a 6th is a "Sext" etc.
     
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  13. dogletnoir

    dogletnoir V----V

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    That's from the Latin, and it reminds me of the Liturgy Of The Hours...
    also known as the Breviary, it is the official set of prayers marking the hours of each day in the contemplative life (i.e. monastery or convent).
    By the time of Saint Benedict, the monastic Liturgy of the Hours was composed of seven daytime prayers and one at night:
    Matins (which would be sung at around 2 am), Lauds (at dawn), Prime (Early Morning Prayer at about 6 am), Terce (Mid-Morning Prayer around 9 am),
    Sext (the mid-day prayer at noon), Nones (mid-afternoon prayer sung at about 3 pm), Vespers (sung at the 'lighting of the lamps', i.e. at dusk),
    and finally Compline, the night prayer sung before retiring to bed, usually between 7 and 9 pm depending on the order and the season.
    The two things aren't really connected, though... it's just that Latin is used to describe both musical intervals and time based ones.

    In French, the descriptive adjective usually comes after the thing described, but in English it's the other way around.
    That's just the way the respective syntaxes work.
    It's not always consistent in French, though; for example, 'un chat noir' is a 'black cat', but 'un grand boulevard' is a 'big avenue'.
    :)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
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  14. Cerb

    Cerb Anti conformist reformist

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    That's way beyond my knowledge of religious matters but those are about the same words with a few exceptions. To be honest, I don't think a whole lot of people would know what I meant if I told them I played a Kvint followed by a Ters either. Anyway, your terminology makes more sense I think.
     
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  15. tukoztukoz

    tukoztukoz Strat-O-Master

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    Melodic minor is also called « mineur majeur » in French. Again we have ouf two tetrachords, the first one is minor and the second one is major.

    Following that logic, C harmonic minor would be
    C Db E F : first tetrachord
    G A Bb C : second tetrachord

    But it’s not like that, so I was wondering if there was something else than linguistics to explain that order. Again, in english, « diminished whole tone » respects the order.
     
  16. Boognish

    Boognish Senior Stratmaster

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    I just had an A-ha! moment! First, I was going clockwise around the whole wheel and not going counterclockwise. Second, I finally picked up on:
    adds a sharp to the new key's 7th scale degree

    And:

    adds a flat to the new 4th scale degree

    This is a game changer! Thank you!
     
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  17. Mr. Lumbergh

    Mr. Lumbergh needs you to go ahead and come in on Sunday, too.

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    More cool stuff about this:
    If you just memorize the order of the outer order of the notes, you can always tell the relative minor by observing which note is 90 degrees clockwise, so A is the relative minor for C, E for G, etc.
    If you're playing a I IV V pattern, just look on either side of the note; immediately counter-clockwise is the IV, immediately clockwise is the V. A I IV V in C? C F G, right there at the top. Directly across will be your tritone. 1/3 the way around will be your III, so starting at C again 1/3 brings you to E and the V we know is just to the right, G.
    I'm a very visual learner so being able to visualize and see the patterns in it has always helped me a lot.
     
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  18. dogletnoir

    dogletnoir V----V

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    Yes, that's one of the key things about the Circle of 5ths diagram, that visual mapping of the relationships.
    For anyone who is interested in pursuing this further, the relationships of the I IV V and ii V I progressions (as well as the b5 or 'tritone' interval)
    on the Circle of 5ths diagram are discussed in greater length in my Functional Harmony thread, located here:
    https://www.strat-talk.com/threads/...-i-learned-to-love-the-circle-of-5ths.536064/
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
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  19. Boognish

    Boognish Senior Stratmaster

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    Question:
    I've been studying the chord wheel. I've got one of those fancy ones that has the clear plastic cirlce wheel thing and it outlines the notes in the key and you spin the clear plastic wheel thing to the key you want to play in blah blah blah.

    Ok...as I play my scales, say key of A, I'm not hitting those notes on the wheel that are outlined and I cant figure out why the notes im playing in Amaj Pentatonic are not the same, why they arent the same, and what kind of relailtionship they have.

    Also, in Key of C on the wheel, on the vii chord it has a small degree symbol next to it. What does that mean?

    Wait...its called a chord wheel...I just realized why the notes in the scale arent matching the chord wheel....I think...now I think I confused myself.
     
  20. Mr. Lumbergh

    Mr. Lumbergh needs you to go ahead and come in on Sunday, too.

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    The degree symbol means it's the diminished chord. It doesn't neatly fit into major or minor the way the other chords do. The Dim has a fifth that is flattened by half and usually a 7th flattened by two steps; the 7th chord has this because of the way the scale is constructed. It sounds odd by itself, it's used in a chord pattern to create tension before resolving back.
    As for your other question, I don't know without looking at it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
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