Join Strat-Talk Today

Practical Music Workshop #8 - Jazzy Eights (Two Chords, Two Modes)

Discussion in 'Tab & Music Forum' started by dogletnoir, Aug 1, 2019.

  1. dogletnoir

    dogletnoir WBLV Strat-Talk Supporter

    Messages:
    8,391
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Location:
    northeastern us
    @Omar
    This is some of your best playing to date, imo!
    You stayed within the suggested modes, found some great melodies, and played both expressively and delicately.
    The ascending arpeggio into your solo section was choice, as was your entire solo (did you spend some time listening
    to Miles?), and even though you did end up with an F# against the final Gmi7, you made it work.

    So, how did he escape the trap of that Major 7th interval against a minor 7th chord, people?
    When the chord fades out, we're left with a strong F in the bass (that 'ending on the 7th' thing),
    and by playing a B after his F#, we're now hearing a diminished/b5 sound (F to Cb enh.).
    If the bass had ended on a G, the F# followed by a B would have been a move to the parallel
    major key (root, major 7th, and major 3rd) like Monk does at the end of Round Midnight,
    and it still would have worked.
    You can also hear it simply as ending on a dominant 7th sound (G, F, and B) if we think of the F# he played
    as a chromatic passing tone.
    This is some pretty hip stuff right here either way!

    Miles himself is quoted as having said, "There are no bad notes... only bad resolutions."

    Edit: @davidKOS, feel free to correct my harmonic analysis if i'm off the mark.
    i've already had to correct myself more than once, LOL.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  2. dogletnoir

    dogletnoir WBLV Strat-Talk Supporter

    Messages:
    8,391
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Location:
    northeastern us
    That's actually a really long straw in his mouth, heading for a bottle of Yoohoo.
    :)
     
  3. dogletnoir

    dogletnoir WBLV Strat-Talk Supporter

    Messages:
    8,391
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Location:
    northeastern us
    Unless it's an aug.
    :p
     
    davidKOS and Thrup'ny Bit like this.
  4. Thrup'ny Bit

    Thrup'ny Bit Grand Master Curmudgeon Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Messages:
    27,335
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Location:
    In a Yorkshire pub
    Well there goes my last hiding place...
     
    dogletnoir and Omar like this.
  5. Omar

    Omar ✪✪ Miserable Old Curmudgeon ✪✪

    Messages:
    3,775
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Location:
    Marbella, Spain
    Wow, I can't believe I did all that. I'm ashamed to say that most of my playing was accidental as I play unintentionally sometimes. I feel like it's a homework/assignment and I have to submit asap. The Maj7/m7 trap was also unintended, however, the B at the end is meant to cover the mess I made over the Gm7 as I forgot to go back to B Phrygian :D

    I read your comment several times while listening to my take, it is a full lesson by itself, full of great points.

    I have been listening to jazz only during the summer. I'll have to listen to Kind of Blue strictly in the coming days.

    E, thank you so much for maintaining PMW and for the sweet comment and positive words. I'm really glad that you liked my take :)
     
  6. Alan L Cole

    Alan L Cole Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    65
    Messages:
    1,561
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2018
    Location:
    NY
    I noticed that half step drop and will definitely be nicking (as they say) that idea.
     
    Andrew Wasson likes this.
  7. Andrew Wasson

    Andrew Wasson Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    55
    Messages:
    1,233
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Hello from Enfield, England. Arrived yesterday at 4:30am my regular time and although I look reasonably awake, I’m pretty knackered and can’t be trusted with any tasks requiring thought.

    Thanks @dogletnoir! I’m so glad you liked it and that’s huge praise that anything I play has a Jeff Beck feel. In my books he’s one of the masters of melody and composition on the guitar.

    The whole process was rewarding and I had the backing tracks running in my head 24/7 for the last couple of weeks. I spent a bunch of time whistling melodies or singing them, humming, whatever it took. I was trying for a trumpet with the notes I chose for the solo. A really nice surprise was that I could come up with whistled melodies that were outside of a pentatonic box and then tie them together with something clearly pentatonic. I think that was assisted by the notes you chose for walking bass line.

    I’ve been messing about with it for such a while that I had entirely forgotten I had altered the BbMaj6 and the CMaj6 chords. One of the goals I was aiming for was to let the drums and bass dictate what I should add to it and that sort of came along organically. If I had a guitar and my Focusrite I’d record it again with the proper chords and it would be an entirely different composition.

    Now that I’ve uploaded mine I’ve started listened to what’s been submitted. Really good stuff. I’m only on the 3rd page but there’s some really nice stuff. I’m really interested in what everyone is doing at that transition to B. It’s such a nice change and there are so many choices available. I’ll be taking it all in while I deal with jet-lag.
     
    stratobiker and dogletnoir like this.
  8. Thrup'ny Bit

    Thrup'ny Bit Grand Master Curmudgeon Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Messages:
    27,335
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Location:
    In a Yorkshire pub
    Wherever you go always take a raincoat and a brolly with you. Enjoy our summer. ;)
     
    Andrew Wasson likes this.
  9. Andrew Wasson

    Andrew Wasson Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    55
    Messages:
    1,233
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Ha, thanks! So far so good but I did bring a hooded water tight jacket just in case. I got word yesterday that is been raining back home after a few weeks of nice weather so we got out just in time. I think this weekend will be nice and then we’ll see. Heading up to Scotland, Inverness in a couple of weeks. I packed a sweater and the rain jacket for that.
     
    Thrup'ny Bit likes this.
  10. Thrup'ny Bit

    Thrup'ny Bit Grand Master Curmudgeon Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Messages:
    27,335
    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Location:
    In a Yorkshire pub
    It's totally unpredictable at the moment. One minute hot and sunny, you blink and you're soaked to the skin. Snow is not unknown. It's known as "Cricket Season" and there's a Test Match being played about 40 miles up the road all this weekend. :)
     
    Omar and Andrew Wasson like this.
  11. dogletnoir

    dogletnoir WBLV Strat-Talk Supporter

    Messages:
    8,391
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Location:
    northeastern us
    As we enter the final week of this month's PMW, let's talk a little bit about the 'practical' side of things.

    The whole point of any of this for me is about finding ways to apply what we're doing here to my own music.
    When i did my 'proof of concept' major tonality take, i also created an 'extended harmony' version using
    the same drums and bass line, and that 'plain vanilla' flavoured single note part.
    i wanted to see how far i could take the piece into my own personal realm just by changing up the chords.
    This was the result:
    CRAZY 8s (extended harmony)

    What is interesting to me is how different the single note part sounds against the new chord changes...
    not so vanilla now, right?
    In fact, the sound and mood/feeling of the entire piece is quite different imo. Reharmonization... remember?

    Have any of these ideas/concepts we've been discussing here begun to work their way into your musical endeavours?
    i'd love to hear your thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  12. montemerrick

    montemerrick you can't stay the fool Strat-Talk Supporter

    Messages:
    19,040
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2015
    Location:
    tsunami zone
    well, i think all practice impacts my playing, and these workshops, as well as the PJW and the challenges once upon a time were my university, so every aspect of my outside musical life feels the learnin'

    specifically the PMW threads have led me to using chords (triple stops?) in soloing more often... also i find myself able to "sing" a solo when im rolling down the road listening to whatever the radio throws at me... which in turn shows up in my playing when performing live... basically the PMW threads have helped me realize thoreau's assertion that you can always go back and put foundations under your castles in the air
     
  13. Andrew Wasson

    Andrew Wasson Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    55
    Messages:
    1,233
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Yes. Singing or whistling melodies and solos instead of doing the same old riff/hook/patterns that I’ve played since I learned the blues scale. Really thinking about what the underpinning of the song is asking for.

    I haven’t applied the next nugget yet but in that mode backing track discussion @fezz parka mentioned:
    I’m looking forward to exploring that piece of the puzzle. I’ve known the patterns for playing Modes but I’ve always struggled with using them effectively (except Ionian of course). Dorian and Mixolydian have been doable as well because they are so close to the Major or Minor scales in their key but I haven't thought of them in terms of harmonizing the parent. When I read that, something clicked.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  14. fezz parka

    fezz parka Making a record.... Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    60
    Messages:
    20,636
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Location:
    In The Studio.
    Record a few measures of a Cmaj7 chord. Just play that one chord. Then...play the C major (Ionian...1st degree) scale over it. Then...play the E Phrygian (3rd degree) mode/scale over it. Then the G Mixolydian (5th degree). Then the B Locrian (7th degree).

    Cmaj7 = CEGB. 1-3-5-7.
     
  15. Andrew Wasson

    Andrew Wasson Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    55
    Messages:
    1,233
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Awesome! Thanks. I’ve been wanting some foundation on how to apply modal playing for a long time and this is the first time I’ve read something that made sense (spelled it out for me, literally).
     
  16. Omar

    Omar ✪✪ Miserable Old Curmudgeon ✪✪

    Messages:
    3,775
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Location:
    Marbella, Spain
    This workshop has widened my knowledge as well as my imagination in terms of chords and modes. It took me out of the repetitive V-ii-I and such. Also, It’s proven that using different keys in one tune isn’t rocket science.
     
  17. Alan L Cole

    Alan L Cole Senior Stratmaster

    Age:
    65
    Messages:
    1,561
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2018
    Location:
    NY
    I now think more about music theory, about chord tones, scales, modes, about triads, arpeggios, more about developing melodic content and incorporating that in my playing. This will be a life long endeavour as there is much to learn and incorporate. But hey, it's fun. Thank you to Chris, David, E, Dave, et al, for your help and direction in this regard.
     
    montemerrick, davidKOS, Omar and 3 others like this.
  18. simoncroft

    simoncroft Dr. Stratster Strat-Talk Supporter

    Age:
    63
    Messages:
    14,352
    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Location:
    SE England
    You've put a lot of work into this, E, so it pains me to admit I've not been a model student. I've learned to play chord shapes I've never used before. I discovered if you substitute a C major 6 for an A minor 7, it can sound pretty cool.

    What I've learned most of all is that this thread is a gift that will keep giving if I return to it and re-read some of the advice I may have glossed over, then take the time to apply it. I'm grateful for all the time that everyone has put into this. :thumb::thumb::thumb:
     
  19. dogletnoir

    dogletnoir WBLV Strat-Talk Supporter

    Messages:
    8,391
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Location:
    northeastern us
    TY for the replies, @montemerrick, @Andrew Wasson, @Omar, and @Alan L Cole.
    @simoncroft, even if you've accomplished only those first 2 things then you've done fine,
    and all of you who have taken part have been 'model students' imo.
    It's only through your participation and feedback that we can gauge the relative success of what we're
    trying to do here, so i do appreciate the time you all took to post takes and/or to respond to my query.
    And even though we'll be moving on to the next one in only a few short days, these workshops are back loaded...
    the information presented never gets old, so process things at your leisure and whim, folks!
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  20. BallisticSquid

    BallisticSquid Senior Stratmaster

    Messages:
    4,184
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Location:
    US
    I've sporadically played around with the chords and rhythm on this and attempted to put a lead/melody over it. No breakthrough of understanding yet. I *hope* I can dedicate some honest effort this week on this. There's no point in posting something that was thrown together without exercising the particular concepts here. I can jam over this but that's not the point. I'm hanging with @simoncroft in the "non model student" corner :).

    I do follow the discussions and understand the concepts at an intellectual level. I need to follow through with the execution.

    These workshops have gotten me thinking and hearing more melodically and that has helped with my own creations; they've helped me step out of my pent box and gotten me excited about music again.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.