Theory stuff

Discussion in 'Tab & Music Forum' started by Antstrat, Apr 10, 2021.

  1. Bowmap

    Bowmap I nose a thang or two. Platinum Supporting Member

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    ii

    The shift in the notes within the nodes made it easier for me to begin to understand.
     
  2. Antstrat

    Antstrat Most Honored Senior Member

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    Don’t know what that means.
     
  3. Bob the builder

    Bob the builder Most Honored Senior Member

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    Exactly what I said.
    Them dam names
    That's the name of the same dam scale only starting it somewhere at the third or fourth or something & I'm too dense to keep it straight.
     
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  4. Baelzebub

    Baelzebub Most Honored Senior Member

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    Yep.....


    lol...let him get through his major, minor and pentatonic before you put him into modes!. :eek:
     
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  5. Anacharsis

    Anacharsis Just a Guy on the Internet Platinum Supporting Member

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    It's a reference to modes, which are really just other scales that are formed by taking that step pattern you noticed (W-W-H-W-W-W-H) and starting (or "centering") somewhere else along the pattern. Songs can just as easily be written in the other modes as they can in major or minor, and they often are in pop or rock. It's just a set of notes. Each set has a sort of sound or character to it, based on the context in which our ears have been trained in our culture. That's it.

    Major is also called Ionian. Because back in the day, scholars liked what was once Greek Asia Minor, and each name refers to a region thereof. Yes, really. They have nothing to do with those places. The names are 100% arbitrary.

    Start at C, go W-W-H-W-W-W-H, and you get:

    C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C - Major or Ionian

    Now use the same set of notes but....

    Start at D, yielding a pattern of W-H-W-W-W-H-W

    D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D - Dorian

    Start at E, and the pattern is H-W-W-W-H-W-W

    E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E - Phrygian

    Start at F, the pattern is W-W-W-H-W-W-H

    F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F - Lydian

    Start at G, the pattern is W-W-H-W-W-H-W

    G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G - Mixolydian

    Start at A, the pattern is W-H-W-W-H-W-W

    A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A - Aeolian (also known as Minor)

    Start at B, the pattern is H-W-W-H-W-W-W

    B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B - Locrian
     
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  6. Dadocaster

    Dadocaster Dr. Stratster

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    Earlier someone opined that they thought harmonized scales were not necessarily the thing to be teaching, I feel the same about modes.
     
  7. Anacharsis

    Anacharsis Just a Guy on the Internet Platinum Supporting Member

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    I was just explaining the reference made by the other poster. None of this is hard until we convince ourselves it is. It ain't a detonator. A misstep costs next to nothing.
     
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  8. Anacharsis

    Anacharsis Just a Guy on the Internet Platinum Supporting Member

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    Pentatonics are easy, too. Five notes instead of seven. So we just need to figure out which two notes to put out of a job.

    For the major pentatonic, take that C scale:

    C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

    and yank out the F and the B - which just so happen to be notes with "half" steps next to them.

    C-D-E-G-A-C

    W-W-H-W-W-W-H becomes (I'm smashing the W and H together in order to note "step and a half").

    W-W-WH-W-WH

    For our minor Pentatonic, see that A minor in the previous post:

    A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A

    and again, yank out some "half step" notes - (the B and the F again).

    A-C-D-E-G-A

    We do the same smashing thing to the minor pattern:

    W-H-W-W-H-W-W

    So the pattern is:

    WH-W-W-WH-W

    Like the major/minor scale and mode patterns, those work in any key (starting with any note). They're just easiest to write as above because the pattern happens to fit C and A without any sharps or flats. Because "historical happenstance and so on for centuries."
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
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  9. Anacharsis

    Anacharsis Just a Guy on the Internet Platinum Supporting Member

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    Oh, and as for that '3rd/5th/7th' thing: There are two ways that kind of number notation is used (because again, music pedagogy is just a tragedy at every level).

    Sometimes, it's used to describe a "degree." Sometimes, it's used to describe an "interval."

    The degrees are easy to understand with our handy dandy scales and step patterns from above.

    Wherever we start is the "root" (No, they don't say 1st. I don't know why. Reasons, I guess.)

    In the C Major scale, that's C. Everything else is described by it's order in the pattern.

    D - 2nd
    E - 3rd
    F - 4th
    G - 5th
    A - 6th
    B - 7th

    So combining some things so we can use the jargon, that C Major pentatonic is the C Major scale with the 4th and 7th degrees removed.

    When they use those 3rd/4th/5th/etc numbers as "intervals," they're talking about the sonic "distance" between two notes. An easy way to think of this is that the distance from C to any other note on the C Major scale is the "interval" spanned by those notes. C to E is a 3rd (a Major third - 3rd in the Major scale. Fun!). And so on. Play two notes separated by a given interval together, and they have a distinctive harmonic flavor/sound/whatever. This is true regardless of which notes they are (a major third - which is two notes that are two "whole steps" apart - always sounds like a major third), which makes it a useful thing to know.

    Why do they try to make this hard? I have no idea.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
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  10. Baelzebub

    Baelzebub Most Honored Senior Member

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    playing with this is what helped me wrap my head around it...

    https://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/
     
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  11. Bowmap

    Bowmap I nose a thang or two. Platinum Supporting Member

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    @Baelzebub I have the book with the moving circle on the cover.

    @Anacharsis Thanks. That is what I wanted to show. Intervals was touched on and when you see nodes stacked up, it starts putting the picture together. Something that may sit in the back of your mind but when people start talking about them you can visualize. My problem is seeing that in fretboard form. They are easier on a leyboard.
     

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  12. nadzab

    nadzab Play Don't Worry Silver Member

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    Yes, in the position you're working on now. What was a breakthrough for me, back when I wanted to move beyond rote pentatonics, was learning to play the major scale all the way up the neck. Get comfortable with the position you're working on, and when you can do it in your sleep, I'd suggest moving it up the neck.

    You'll find that you don't even need charts, now that you have the WWH,WWWH thing down...

    Mix it up by starting at the tonic on different strings as you go up. Before you know it, you'll be able to play the scale anywhere, in any key.

    WWH,WWWH
     
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  13. fezz parka

    fezz parka fezz parka

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    Yes.
    7 notes.
    7 modes.
    7 chords in the progression.

    7 is the magic number.
     
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  14. fezz parka

    fezz parka fezz parka

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    The second degree of C major.

    DEFGABC.
     
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  15. fezz parka

    fezz parka fezz parka

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    Harmonized scales are the modes/degrees of the parent scale..
     
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  16. fezz parka

    fezz parka fezz parka

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    The names aren't as important as the numbers.

    1st ( parent scale, Ionian)

    CDEFGAB

    2nd (Dorian)

    DEFGABC

    3rd (Phrygian)

    EFGABCD

    4th (Lydian)

    FGABCDE

    5th (Mixolydian)

    EFGABCD

    6th (Aeolian)

    ABCDEFG

    7th (Locrian)

    BCDEFGA

    These are the 7 basic modes. There are others...but they are derived from synthetic scales...like harmonic minor for example.
     
  17. Paperback Rocker

    Paperback Rocker Do it or screw it.

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    I teach harmonization of the scale, but in bits. It takes many run-thrus for a student to grasp the process.

    I like to do it like geometry proofs to see if the student grasps it from all angles.

    Something like: "Prove to me the third chord of the key of E major is G# minor."

    That's fun.

    It needs to be stated that there are two schools of thinking about and playing modes.
    1) the old-school "jazz" way, playing the changes (endless practice and much more difficult to become adept)
    2) the modern Satriani / Vai way, where a riff or entire song uses the primary elements/chords built from harmonizing the modal scale. In this style, the soloist will play the mode over the riff, not necessarily 'playing the changes' with each chord that passes. This is harder to understand, but easier to play. The key center of this type of song will be different than the key exhibited on the treble clef. This modern version is much harder to get a grasp on mentally.

    In both cases, what is never stressed enough about modes is that they are nothing until they are played over the proper chord or chords. Playing from A to A in the key of G major is not Dorian. It's G major. Only when you play A to A over the proper Am chord does it become Dorian modal.

    MAJOR SCALE MAJOR SCALE

    Learn It
    Love It
    Live It
     
  18. fezz parka

    fezz parka fezz parka

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    Go Matt! :D
     
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  19. fezz parka

    fezz parka fezz parka

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    Here's an exercise for you Ant.

    Arpeggios from that C major scale. Not played in unison. Sound each note out.

    Cmaj7
    C-E-G-B then B-G-E-C.
    Dm7
    D-F-A-C then C-A-F-D.
    Em7
    E-G-B-D then D-B-G-E.
    Fmaj7
    F-A-C-E then E-C-A-F.
    G7
    G-B-D-F then F-D-B-G
    Am7
    A-C-E-G then G-E-C-A.
    Bm7b5
    B-D-F-A then A-F-D-B

    Then back to Cmaj7.

    Ascend and descend.

    Do this for fifteen minutes then have fun.
     
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  20. Dadocaster

    Dadocaster Dr. Stratster

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    ACTUAL PHOTO OF @Antstrat at this point in this thread:


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