Tone Concrete!

Discussion in 'Non-Fender S-Type Guitar Forum' started by uncle daddy, Sep 13, 2020.

  1. Dreamdancer

    Dreamdancer Senior Stratmaster

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    The photo was evidence of a totally custom build it wasnt something high end or even finished one...if you want photos from my scratch builds those are actually two of my main guitars here is my set-thru(the blue) and my neck through(the natural) strat scratch builds...so right out the bat better heel access at the last frets than any strat ,big stainless steel frets,combos of dimarzios or kinman pickups,hipshot or gotoh tuners,12 inch radius boards etc etc etc everything to the way i wanted a strat to be and mostly(especially the blue one) done with rasps for the whole outline.

    To your question that i have already answered....you dont have to possess the tools or the knowhow from the get go,you just have to know what you want from your guitar and draw it on paper and go step by step...obviously someone who started playing the guitar doesnt have clear preferences yet so even if he wanted to make a custom guitar he isnt really sure of what he wants and ll probably fail.

    The player though who played and used guitars for a while,knows exactly what he wants..that guy even if he didnt use sandpaper before in his life can make an excellent solid body electric.For example if he(like me)doesnt like a pesky heel blocky thing to bug him when he plays up the neck he ll at that point decide to go to some neckthrough or set in construction...which in turn ll determine the woods in the right sizes to order ready and thicknessed to make his lamination....its pretty simple deductive thinking, its not nuclear physics and now he has pretty much his guitar right there(minus the fingerboard)....from that point on is just the process of removing wood till you reach the final shape....how you may ask if you have zero tools..all he needs is to find someone with a bandsaw to cut most of the extra wood( but not close to the lines) so can start working on detailing it in his garage...or he can actually quit the gym for a week buy a hand saw or an electric hand saw and do it himself.

    As we clearly saw from this video,most of the luthier choices that would be critical for an acoustic instrument dont exist here....you dont need to find the just perfect spruce,make desicions about the size of the body or the braces or the thickness of your finish that are all impact the sound....so we already established that all you have to do..is to learn to cut wood....talking about low hanging fruit here....

    Your problem is that you watch pics or videos of people building stuff with heaps of power tools and of course get overwhelmed and assume that this is impossible...yes it is impossible in a couple weeks or months but lets say in a year its very possible even with limited tools...but for that you need patience and you dont got any....so dont hide behind mojo luthier knowledge lacking...you are just not willing to do the manual labour....lets face it.

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  2. Mr. Lumbergh

    Mr. Lumbergh needs you to go ahead and come in on Sunday, too.

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    Don't assume what I know and don't know. I've worked in manufacturing for medical devices and turbomachinery for many years.
    You said yourself the quality could rival "custom shop" from "just about anybody." The photos you offer as evidence do not rival CS quality. That is not intended as an attack, just keeping it real. Nor does "just about anybody" possess the knowledge, tools, or will. A few do, but far from "just about anybody." Seems to me the scratch-build threads here and at other forums are further evidence, because:
    1) they are somewhat rare, and
    2) other members know that they would not be able to repeat the task at the same level of quality, so there is respect given to them.
    Also, "knowing what they want" is not the same as knowledge on how to achieve it. I know what I want in a sports car and can draw it. Doesn't mean I can build it.
    The "custom shop" from "just about anybody" notion is preposterous, that's been shown repeatedly, and I'm done arguing about it.
     
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  3. Dreamdancer

    Dreamdancer Senior Stratmaster

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    Yes buddy name your supposed credentials that have zero to do with what we are talking about here...and since we are keeping it real, name the things that make the custom shop stand out that other guitars cant really grasp..lets say i give you finish as one....can you name one more?Since we are keeping it real we need to be SPECIFIC....i want the...nuts and bolts from the..turbomachinery expert....
     
  4. Mr. Lumbergh

    Mr. Lumbergh needs you to go ahead and come in on Sunday, too.

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    I'm a mechanical engineer with a background in energy systems and design. I've done R&D for a medical device company that specializes in endoscopic surgical tools as well as turbomachinery equipment for the industrial gas and fossil fuel industries. That work for you Sparky? I learned very quickly that when the machinists have feedback on your part design, it's best to take what they have to say very seriously. Someone else here derided George Fullerton as "just a machinist" and that's an ignorant attitude; those folks are highly skilled if they're any good.
    And it isn't things that "can't be grasped," it's the attainable quality standard and the number of people able to meet it. We've been through that again, and again, and AGAIN... I'm not sure why those points are still difficult to grasp.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2020
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  5. Dreamdancer

    Dreamdancer Senior Stratmaster

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    Evasive actions enabled....buddy just crumbled over the key word...SPECIFICS...if had asked you about the difference between a squier bullet or a mexican strat vs a custom shop there would be no generic crap..there would be detailed answers of SPECIFIC key differences...but now that there arent any, we enter the backflip segment of the discussion where it gets all feely and mystical...lol...
     
  6. Mr. Lumbergh

    Mr. Lumbergh needs you to go ahead and come in on Sunday, too.

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    Your inability to interpret a knowledge of manufacturing processes and tolerances is neither evasive nor a backflip on my part. You are also the one that made the claim we're discussing and have provided no real evidence.
    Nice try, though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2020
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  7. Dreamdancer

    Dreamdancer Senior Stratmaster

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    Dude if you gonna make an argument from authority..at least you have to be the authority on the subject...this is solid body electric guitar making...you claim to be a mechanical engineer so no argument from authority from you...sparky.
    The only argument that can be made in favor of the cs shop is that it uses tonewood...and thats why the tonewood debate is so fierce cause all the other basis are covered...the problem is that with videos like this one...the tonewood base is covered too...someone can just make a cement block and still sound like a great strat tone....did he have knowledge of manufacturing processes and tolerances when he poured cement over a mold:D:D:D.....all basis are covered now...ooops.
     
  8. Mr. Lumbergh

    Mr. Lumbergh needs you to go ahead and come in on Sunday, too.

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    Actually, I did nothing of the sort. You asked what my background was and I told you; that was the only time my credentials entered into the discussion at all. You still have not shown that "just about anyone" can produce a "custom shop" instrument. You made the claim, the discussion right now is your inability to back it. I still see no evidence, your attempts to divert notwithstanding. Simple.
    And seriously, you don't think it took some knowledge of building/manufacturing to produce the mold in the first place and correctly cast it?
    Hmm.
     
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  9. Dreamdancer

    Dreamdancer Senior Stratmaster

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    Yes and it was covered in that video(and several others by the way) now anyone can do the same and cast that body.....(oops sorry anyone cant watch a video and follow basic instructions i can already hear you)

    Which is my point for the wooden guitars too...you use your templates to somewhat cast that body and neck too....just like that mold the templates ll make it perfect everytime..so whats the difference?Things like perfectly leveled crowned and polished frets,rolled fretboards,well cut nut and a good finish...if your claim is real only a cs shop luthier for example can level perfectly the frets ...i may think i know when something is straight but no...the cs shop luthier can get it..more straight...thats pretty much your crap...the almost pregnant and the heavily pregnant crap..which mr engineer..it doesnt exist...
     
  10. Mr. Lumbergh

    Mr. Lumbergh needs you to go ahead and come in on Sunday, too.

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    “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”

    ― Socrates

    You still have not made your case, which is "just about anyone" can produce a "custom shop" instrument. You simply try to divert the argument. And it's simple to download a template for a 3D printer online for concrete (one that did require knowledge of manufacturing and design to create in the first place, incidentally), but as I recall we're discussing wood; I don't find a concrete body anywhere in the Fender CS catalog as an option. CS recall is your own criterion for quality standard.
    I see no reason to continue with you, have a nice day.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2020
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  11. Dreamdancer

    Dreamdancer Senior Stratmaster

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    I just did...its so easy that even a video can teach you.......your ridiculous claim is that only some select few can follow this guy to the letter..

    By the way...i just layed out what an excellent custom shop solid body electric guitar instrument is using specifics...well cut nut,perfectly dialed in frets,that dont wear that easy,rolled fingerboard,high quality tuners and bridge as well as electronics and a quality finish.That way even if someone disagrees with the above he ll at least provide a specific counter argument.

    Now iam waiting for your description of the perfect instrument that has any specifics different than mine or something more that i forgot....you havent provided one and you know you cant without speaking about logos and fairy dusts..iam waiting....
     
  12. Chuck8436

    Chuck8436 Strat-O-Master

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    Just thought I'd pop back in because Im a masochist.
    1. This argument isnt about "the perfect instrument" just about a "CS quality instrument"
    2. I actually havent seen anyone here use logos or "fairy dust" to back up their claims. Brand isnt the issue. The whole basis of the argument is that some people work hard to achieve a certain level of skill at building guitars, and those guitars are of higher quality than any joe off the street can build at home. Heres a picture of a middle pickup rout I did on my SG with a hand drill, a chisel and a mallet:
    20200925_183206.jpg
    It probably wouldnt be so ugly if I actually had a router. And please don't start making assumptions about my level of skill or experience in anything. You don't know me. Im just arguing that certain tools make things look a little better.
    Lastly, I have a challenge for you:
    I know you already consider yourself the winner of this... "Debate". So, I challenge you to stop replying. You "won", so just move on. But I have a feeling that you have some kind of subconscious need to have the last word on everything. A quality I noticed almost as soon as this whole thing started. Prove me wrong. Dont reply. Just take your "win" and go.
     
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  13. Dreamdancer

    Dreamdancer Senior Stratmaster

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    First of all buddy if you dont wanna reply dont reply...just read the comment and move on,no one forces you to chime in(like you just did) so instead of telling me what to do or not do focus on your actions.

    Second of all...the problem with this whole thing is specificity:I obviously agree that some people reach an insane level of skill at building stuff...but the real question is...is that NEEDED or UTILISED in a solid body electric guitar build?I have seen insanely skilled luthier building traditional instruments that make my jaw drop and without a doubt need a life time of learning and practicing to even get decent..let alone amazing at it.They are dealing with thin slices of wood that need to be handled just right taking also into account countless other variables that can make or break an instrument completely...margin of error virtually non existent.

    Then you have the solid body electic guitar build...they are dealing with very thick and dense slabs or material that as we have seen here too have little to nothing to do with the sound(even a cement block sounds just as good for gods sake) it doesnt matter how you cut it or what tools you ll use..the sound wont change..so you cant manipulate anything at this point...all you need to do is keep things straight and aligned and level for the thing to work like it should.So my point is that the learning curve for doing that is actually not very steep at all..anyone interested in doing so after a bit of research and practice he can do it.

    To give you an analogy is like the dude that likes to work out gets some gymnastics equipment and learns to do some pullups ,dipping exercices in parallel bars and some tumbling on the ground...great workout in itself and ll get him healthy and buff but in terms of actual gymnastics skills that pretty much counts as zero cause to make even the easiest skill happen in that sport you have to practice from a young age diligently.....even saying he is doing gymnastics is a stretch..

    Solid body electric guitar is like that dude...the skills required to do what he does are very attainable..the real gymnastic skills(like the acoustic and traditional instruments luthiery) are light years beyond his skill level.