Understanding "Take Five"

Discussion in 'Sidewinders Bar & Grille' started by Steelskin, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. Steelskin

    Steelskin Strat-Talker

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    So I have fallen into some (for me) uncharted musical territory.

    Im playing with Paul Desmonds Take Five.

    1. Im playing AABA... Is this correct?

    2. For the B section, IM trying to figure out the (not sure what its called) Cadence? Standard? Progression?

    Im playing in Eb-

    The B section im playing as...

    Bmaj7 Ab-6 | Bb-7 Eb-7 | Ab-7 Db7 | Gbmaj7

    Bmaj7 Ab-6 | Bb-7 Eb-7 | Ab-7 Db7 | F-7 Bb-7

    3. Is the following correct?

    IV iv | v i | iv VII | III

    IV iv | v i | iv VII | ii V I

    I recongnize the ii V I at the end but im a bit confused about the rest....

    Can anyone shed some light on the subject?
     
  2. orpheoet

    orpheoet Senior Stratmaster

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    I'd call that abm7, db7, gbM7 a ii V I in G. Ive never done this one
     
  3. davidKOS

    davidKOS not posting these days

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    The head is in AABA for, often we solo over the form or just open A section or both.

    As for the B, another way of looking at all those chords is to temporarily think of them as being in another key, so although the Gbmaj7 is indeed a 3rd from the overall tonic Eb minor, the chords Bmaj7 Ab-6 | Bb-7 Eb-7 | Ab-7 Db7 | Gbmaj7 could be though of as VI ii iii vi ii V7 I in the key of Gb (the Bmaj7 is a Cbmaj7 really).

    This is a valuable concept in jazz, to realize that the key centers shift and many chord patterns are based on a secondary tonic other than the home key. Many standards go through a number of key areas before the final resolution to the tonic key.

    I hope this helps a bit.
     
  4. Steelskin

    Steelskin Strat-Talker

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    Thanks fellas


    I originally learned it as Cbmaj7, I didnt think that was proper tho...

    OK so I think im understanding what your saying, Im basically transpoing into another key for the B section...
    I have done that with some grateful dead songs....

    Gbmaj7 is basically the relative to Eb- Is that correct?

    So if the standard used in Take Five had a name, what would it be?

    Also in addition to this, im kinda hoping you guys can shed soem more light for me.....

    1. Does "comping" mean soloing? improvising?

    2. Can I apply a modal approach to soloing over take five? Using Eb Aeolian for the A, and maybe Gb Ionian for the B?

    And thanks for the input and patience. I obviously have zero experience with jazz lol
     
  5. Jazzjoker

    Jazzjoker Strat-Talker

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    Ok I just checked Take Five on Real Book and here's a few thoughts.

    1. According to the Real Book, key is not Eb. It's Gb. We usually name jazz tunes according to their relative major key, no matter if they're modal or minor pieces.

    2. The tune's A part consists of a VI - III vamp in the key of Gb. What's interesting is that Eb- isn't displayed with a minor 7th which is typical of the dorian mode. That's probably in order for the musicians to not mistake it for a II-7 which is not.

    3. Form is AABA. Four, 8 meter cycles.

    4. B is as follows:

    |Cbmaj7 Ab-6| |Bb-7 Eb-7| |Ab-7 Db7| |Gbmaj7|

    |Cbmaj7 Ab-6| |Bb-7 Eb-7| |Ab-7 Db7| |F-7 Bb7|

    and the harmonic analysis is:

    |IVmaj7 II-6| |III-7 VI-7| |II-7 V7| |Imaj7|

    |IVmaj7 II-6| |III-7 VI-7| |II-7 V7| |II-7 V7 (in the key of Eb)|

    So basically you're constantly in the key of Gb major except from the last meter of B where there's a short passage from the key of Eb major. The II-7 V7 there is placed in order to make a smooth transition back to the Eb- chord which follows.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
  6. Steelskin

    Steelskin Strat-Talker

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    Jazzjoker Thanks for the great info! Making a lot of sense now. I think ill have to read the post a few more timeslol

    Thanks again!

    Now can anyone tell me what "comping" is? lol
     
  7. Johnny V

    Johnny V Senior Stratmaster

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    Opposite, really. It's what you're doing while another guy takes the lead.

    Comp = accompany
     
  8. rlyacht

    rlyacht Strat-Talker

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    You may find this page on jazzguitar.be helpful.

    Also, I don't think anyone has noted yet that the time signature (what you mean by 'cadence'?) is unusual - it's 5/4.
     
  9. Steelskin

    Steelskin Strat-Talker

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    Thanks Johnny V!
     
  10. Steelskin

    Steelskin Strat-Talker

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    Thanks! Ill have a peek at that!

    I knew that its 5/4. I didnt know that cadence is timing. I was just throwing those words out cause I dont understand them fully. Thanks for the input
     
  11. davidKOS

    davidKOS not posting these days

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    Pretty much what I said. You did include the correct 7ths extensions, I was making it simple to make a point. The final II7 V7 to Eb(m) could also be though of as V7 of V; then V7 to I (i).

    The Gb is the relative major key to Ebm, as G is to Em. I was taught that jazz can be in both major and minor keys, and am sticking to that!

    Your point about the Ebm tonic not being mistaken for a ii chord is worth noticing and is good you brought it up. The tune is a modal head on the A parts, so that Ebm IS the tonic. It would be wrong to think in Db and consider it a ii chord, unless you are going to Db for some reason - like in another song.
     
  12. davidKOS

    davidKOS not posting these days

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    Good website....and I didn't mention the time signature because it is so obvious.

    Which is a skill in and of itself.
     
  13. amstratnut

    amstratnut Peace thru Music.

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    Is Eb Minor not the relative minor of Gb? They would have the same key signature but the home base being Eb Minor would indicate Eb Minor key right?

    I beleive the tune modulates to Gb major in the bridge or B section. Same notes different emphasis and cadences.
     
  14. Jazzjoker

    Jazzjoker Strat-Talker

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    Agreed, provided of course that the F is played as a dominant chord and not a minor 7 but I'm sure a lot of players play it like that anyway.


    That is correct. That's exactly why I said that we tend to name jazz tunes according to the relative major key. It's a means to simplify things.

    If we want to be absolutely precise and as the melody indicates, the A part of the tune is in Eb Aeolian while the B part is in Gb major.

    Still in a harmonic analysis of the A part, again as a means of simplicity, I would use the Gb major scale. After all it's only theory. Once the band starts playing the tune, everything falls into place musically (considering of course they know what they're doing).
     
  15. davidKOS

    davidKOS not posting these days

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    Well put, Jazzjoker!

    amstratnut : "Is Eb Minor not the relative minor of Gb? They would have the same key signature but the home base being Eb Minor would indicate Eb Minor key right?"


    Yes

    Shucks, I play this one a lot, other than Jethro Tull's "Living in the Past" how many 5/4 tunes are popular?
     
  16. rlyacht

    rlyacht Strat-Talker

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    Spin the Bottle by Juliana Hatfield is in 5/4
     
  17. stratofortress

    stratofortress Strat-O-Master

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    I thought this thread was about taking a break at work..
     
  18. davidKOS

    davidKOS not posting these days

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    OK, I know of her but not that tune, thanks.
     
  19. ripgtr

    ripgtr Most Honored Senior Member

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    The B part is a IV, iii, ii, I (4321) walkdown in Gb, which is the relative major of Eb - (minor). Look at the first chord of each bar and you see this. What I learned from my jazz teacher was to turn everything into ii/V. So ...

    The first bar is more like a 1,4 really, but the rule still applies. Cb maj7/Fb maj7 (yes, that is the same notes as E maj7). The relative minor of Fb maj7 is Ab -(the 6th voicing adds a nice decending motion). So it is just a sub. That was the hardest part for me to figuare out.

    Then it is the decending line, turned into 2,5 progressions. The whole rest of the walk down is straight circle of 5ths, too. Very common in jazz. Bebop does that a lot.

    The end of the B part is Fm7/Bb7 - the 2/5 in the "new" key of Eb-. Sets up the key change to the A part key.

    So, it is all just 2/5 progressions in a decending pattern.

    Sounds more complicated than it really is. I have only done the song a few times, but the guys I did it with knew jazz. We only soloed on the A part, so I wouldn't worry about the B part too much.
     
  20. scotzoid

    scotzoid Senior Stratmaster

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    Theme from Mission:Impossible (the original, not the bastard dance version they created for the movies).