Can't get action low after refret - '86 MIJ Strat w/ Kahler Spyder

[SYNCHRONIC]

Hey guys

I've been having trouble getting my 1986 MIJ Fender Strat with Kahler Spyder trem playing as smooth/fast/loose as it used to before getting it refretted.

I use .008 guage Thomastik-Infeld strings (best strings I've ever witnessed), but currently they feel more like 10's or even 11's perhaps due to the increase string height and tension compared to what I'm used to.

It's been through 2 set-ups by the guy who refretted it, as well as about 25+ hours of my own time tinkering and adjusting the setup (2 sets of strings also), but I just can't get it to play like it used to.

After much research and contemplation, I am thinking that because my old frets were so worn out and flattened at the top, this gave it an artificially flat radius, which allowed the action to be set much lower than it can be currently. As with the dead/worn out frets I was able to have both a lower action than now, and also less fret buzz.

I am thinking that perhaps I should get the frets re-radius-ed/flattened slightly at the top in-order to bring it back to the sort of setup that I find necessary for my kind of playing.

Anyone have any experience with this, or any opinions on whether my thinking may be correct?



For instance here is an old video from a couple of years ago of the kind of ease of playing/speed the guitar was capable of... I would struggle now to play as effortlessly on it with the new frets. (Jescar Evo Gold Mediums)





Many thanks!

Any input would be hugely appreciated as I've spent so much time tweaking and tinkering and never getting closer than 80% where I'd like it without buzz starting to really take over.

 

[fumbler]

First, awesome playing!

Two questions: What's the fretboard radius? It looks fairly flat in the video but that's just a guess.

And is the guy who refretted it a real pro? A refret should have been followed by a complete level/crown job; otherwise they won't all be the same height and you'll have fret buzz unless you jack the action up high. Did he do the level/crown?

 

[SYNCHRONIC]

First, awesome playing!

Two questions: What's the fretboard radius? It looks fairly flat in the video but that's just a guess.

And is the guy who refretted it a real pro? A refret should have been followed by a complete level/crown job; otherwise they won't all be the same height and you'll have fret buzz unless you jack the action up high. Did he do the level/crown?

Thanks a lot man!

As far as I am aware the guitar originally came up with a 12" radius (pretty flat for a strat), the frets definitely were much flatter (the tops had been shaved off from bends/vibrato, perhaps even re-radiused as I only got the guitar about 8 years ago, and may have been refretted well before then) than they are now after being re-fretted, as far the re-fret job it is pretty nicely done, very smooth and polished frets, nice and smooth crowning, and all flat when using a steel ruler layed on it's side against them, no rocking or gaps.

At the moment my string height on the Low E string (heaviest string) is about 2.2mm or so at the 12th fret, but lower near the nut. I cannot get it under 2mm without severe buzzing.

 

[henderman]

Pure blindfolded guess with a dart - are the nut slots now too low after installing higher frets?

 

[fumbler]

Flat tops on the frets is not a good thing. You do want rounded crowns on top so the strings make contact at a single point. But nicely crowned and polished frets don't matter if they aren't level with each other.

A blooz-playing hack can tolerate a medium-high action just fine so sometimes no level/crown is done. But you need a premium set-up for your playing style and that means a precise level/crown job. It sounds like you're not sure if he did that. Ask him directly.

And laying a ruler across all the frets doesn't really tell you much. A precision flat "fret rocker" that spans exactly 3 frets at a time is better. But it only takes a tiny deviation in fret heights to mess with your set-up.

 

[fumbler]

Pure blindfolded guess with a dart - are the nut slots now too low after installing higher frets?

Henderman makes a great point (that I should kick myself for not mentioning.) But really, any refret should almost ALWAYS be accompanied by a new nut install. The fret heights have changed completely so the nut slots should, too. Did your tech do that?

 

[SYNCHRONIC]

Thanks guys, the nut is a steel locking nut, so no replacement nut... although he did make a shim out of maple veneer to elevate it to accommodate the slightly higher frets, originally when I got the guitar back after the refret the nut was actually too high, now it seems about perfect, as when the low E string is fretted at the 3rd fret, there is the tiniest gap above the 1st fret (about a sheet of papers width).

He definitely said that the frets have been leveled/crowned nicely, and they do seem like it. I do get the impression that my issue lies with there now being too tight a radius compared to how it was with the flat tops. Slightly flattening the frets and then re-crowning/polishing as usual could perhaps remedy this do you think?

EDIT: To clarify the shim was too high when he first gave it back to me, about 1.5mm gap between the 1st fret and low E string when depressed at the 3rd fret. Now it is barely visible, but the string can be moved to "clink" the fret so it is not in contact.

 

[fumbler]

I don't see how that could make a difference when you're starting with a 12" radius fretboard.

How about this: when you tried to lower the action, did it buzz worse at a few particular frets or was it bad all over the neck? Was it one particular string at fault? And what relief are you setting?

It sounds like your tech does know what he's doing (although shimming the nut that high is a concern.) You could talk to him about taking a second look at it. Ask if he adjusted the neck angle at all. Maybe consider adding some "fallaway" leveling if he hasn't already (taking the top few frets lower than the others).

And here's a simple/stupid possibility: did he raise the pickups?

 

[SYNCHRONIC]

I don't see how that could make a difference when you're starting with a 12" radius fretboard.

How about this: when you tried to lower the action, did it buzz worse at a few particular frets or was it bad all over the neck? Was it one particular string at fault? And what relief are you setting?

It sounds like your tech does know what he's doing (although shimming the nut that high is a concern.) You could talk to him about taking a second look at it. Ask if he adjusted the neck angle at all. Maybe consider adding some "fallaway" leveling if he hasn't already (taking the top few frets lower than the others).

And here's a simple/stupid possibility: did he raise the pickups?

The fret buzz usually gets worse everywhere, but especially around the 2nd and 3rd frets, then also some choking out when bending around 14-20th frets on the high strings. There is definitely also much more discrepancy now between the distance from the middle strings to the fret wire, and the outerstrings to the fret wire (much great gap on the edges) which makes it feel quite awkward to go across the strings higher up the fretboard.

Also pickups appear to be untouched, very low down compared to the strings (0.5mm from pole pieces to strings, 0.4mm on the high E treble string)

Edit: Also thing is he has already done 2 setups (one as part of the refret, then after I'd spent 20 hours trying to get the action dialed in I came in for some free advice, and one of his colleague rudely told me to leave if I wasn't going to leave it (pay) to be setup... which I managed to get another free setup for from the manager after complaining)..

So I have already gotten 2 setups from the guy, and don't think A. a third will really do much, and B. I cannot afford to pay for him to do some fret fall-off or something to that nature. If anything I would save up money and go elsewhere to get the fret re-radiused without removal, quite frustrating for your prize and best playing guitar to be so seemingly impossible to get back to it's former playability .

 

[SYNCHRONIC]

Stayed up all night trying to hone in the action but not really made much progress, tomorrow I am going to try to drop it right down to factory spec (1.6mm action at 12th fret, a4 piece of paper width relief at 7th fret when fretted at 1st and last fret) and then try to adjust the truss rod from there and see if I can get the strings to actually ring and not choke out.

Getting this guitar refretted is looking to be the worst decision I've made in my life...

 

[fumbler]

My sympathies, man. You should take a very close look at this guitar (maybe with a magnifying glass) and see if the new frets are seated properly in the neck. Then try this: a plastic credit card/debit card actually makes a decent fret rocker because they have precise laser-cut edges. Try to test all over the neck, beside each string. Span 3 frets at a time and see if it see-saws over a fret or two.

And most standard setups START with the truss rod/relief adjustment. Do that before you mess with the action.

 

[Guitarmageddon]

Stayed up all night trying to hone in the action but not really made much progress, tomorrow I am going to try to drop it right down to factory spec (1.6mm action at 12th fret, a4 piece of paper width relief at 7th fret when fretted at 1st and last fret) and then try to adjust the truss rod from there and see if I can get the strings to actually ring and not choke out.

Getting this guitar refretted is looking to be the worst decision I've made in my life...

Action height is always done AFTER truss rod, not first.... I think you're doing the setup backwards, this might be why you're having a problem.... like @fumbler says

 

[SYNCHRONIC]

Cheers, I will try the credit card method tomorrow to confirm the frets are level (which I believe they are), also the method of dropping the action way down and then adjusting the truss rod to try and compensate for string choking is just a last resort, I haven't done it that way in the past.

I'm thinking a neck shim and re-radius/slight conical/compound radius might be the solution, but entails money I just don't have... will update tomorrow, thanks for the tips everyone! Take care!

 

[guitarman1984]

Action height is always done AFTER truss rod, not first.... I think you're doing the setup backwards, this might be why you're having a problem.... like @fumbler says

This! Check your setup procedure!
I would carefully check if all the frets are properly seated down to the wood all over the neck.
Also have a look against the light: with the guitar body and bridge close to your face and the neck pointing away from your face, align your eyes to the neck against the sunlight, you should spot neck backbow or taller frets if you carefully align the neck to your eyes. I can clearly spot worn out areas around the 12th frets in my Guitars by doing so!

 

[SYNCHRONIC]

For some reason my message has been "awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors" for a few hours, maybe because I used the word cre*it c*rd?


Cheers, I will try the cr*dit c*rd method tomorrow to confirm the frets are level (which I believe they are), also the method of dropping the action way down and then adjusting the truss rod to try and compensate for string choking is just a last resort, I haven't done it that way in the past.

I'm thinking a neck shim and re-radius/slight conical/compound radius might be the solution, but entails money I just don't have... will update tomorrow, thanks for the tips everyone! Take care!

 

[robotguitar]

Hope I'm wrong, but my guess is just a bad refret. Did the refret not include a setup? When I had a refret, I gave my tech a pack of strings and it played amazing when I picked it up.

 

[SYNCHRONIC]

Hope I'm wrong, but my guess is just a bad refret. Did the refret not include a setup? When I had a refret, I gave my tech a pack of strings and it played amazing when I picked it up.

Can't confirm 100% that it isnt a bad refret (I'm 80% sure the actual refret job was done well), and yes it did include a setup, which had over 3mm action at the 12th fret and was unplayable for my style, after many hours of tweaking I got it down to 2mm with some buzzing, and then had the guy set it up again, with just some minor improvement.

As I said earlier, after the refret this guitar has had 2 "professional setups" and currently about 40 hours of my own tinkering/adjusting of the bridge/truss rod etc...